I'm M9 (M9ter) from Reddit's PE forum r/ajelqforyou, AMA (Ask Me Anything)

[M9ter]

There seems to be anecdotal reporting/evidence that training should be focused on girth or length rather than both at the same time. Sort of reminds me of interference effects when doing a lot of cardio + hypertrophy training, and kind of intuitively makes sense.

after reading your suggestion of using a hold to weaken the tunica prior to stretching I am wondering if you think there is truth to only training one “domain” at a time or if it doesn’t make much difference and that generally it’s possible to get gain in both at the same time that are similar (maybe slightly less) than what you would gain if it was focused.

Hey,

The basic way to explain how the growth works is, in whichever direction (lengthwise or outward for girth) you stress it is the way it will add the most cells. So shockloading for 5 minutes won't do much for girth, but an hour session will. All about time under stress. I've found in both myself and many of the guys I've coached that the thicker it is, the harder it tends to be to gain length due to the extra mass involved. You can still get the newbie hidden length gains, but trying to get devices like extenders to work as girth increases is a losing battle. Most of the 6" starting girth guys had trouble getting past the newbie length gains, while the guys with 3-4 inch girth had it much easier trying to gain 2" of length or more. So the approach of length first followed by girth has some observation and reasoning behind it.

 

[Jianhai Shou]

Hello sir, I'm Chinese.And I want to know how can I get my gain?My penis size is about 12-13cm.I want to get 19-20cm.Is this a hard goal?How can I do for this?I'm 20 years old now.

 

[PEispossible]

Hi,

From the super fast length gains I've witnessed from some users on the forum and my own experiences, I stand by my belief its hidden length. When newbie length gains (hidden length exhausted) that's when the real work begins. Most guys see the first inch almost overnight, while the second comes along in 18-24 months on average, so that does fit with my observations..

Does this mean if a guy starts out at 6 bpel and 5 nbpel that hell get to 5.5 - 6 bpel newbie gains and stay 6 bpel or is it your thinking that 6 bpel and 5 nbpel went or will go to 7 bpel and 6 bpsfl, and that it's simple hidden penis inside the body ,that isn't measured bpel?


Also in all my PE time I've only gained 0.25 inches, 0.5 at most in length. In addition, my base girth is 6, and has been since the first time I measured. I may have gained a lil bit from hanging but my primary focus is length, currently. So maybe a few shorter sets of compression hanging , maybe longer sets of vaccum hanging, and manuals for me to get my penis where it wants to be?

 

[Azmike]

Your experience and observations seem consistent with my experience. What do you mean by “hidden length exhausted”? Stretched ligaments or actually exposing a portion of the hidden penis?

What is your experience with heat? Any experience with ultrasound? PRP injections? Gainswave?

Hi,

From the super fast length gains I've witnessed from some users on the forum and my own experiences, I stand by my belief its hidden length. When newbie length gains (hidden length exhausted) that's when the real work begins. Most guys see the first inch almost overnight, while the second comes along in 18-24 months on average, so that does fit with my observations. Ugh, sorry to hear about the urethral tear. That's like the pressure safety valve and often the first to yield/pop when exposed to excess force. The urethra is usually the weak link. Very common with hanging. Sorry, I meant devices other than BIB style hangers for long term wear times.. As for compression hangers, they're really not meant for more than a few minutes wear at a time, with the new MaleHanger device inventor backing that up. Get the setup right, you can wear it for that 30 mins. Get that setup wrong and you begin to feel tingling, numbness, or excess cold....you join the list of those injured while wearing a compression hanger. So the margin for error is there and risks to take versus safer methods like Vac hanging (LG Hanger) that can support up to 15 lbs these days. Just my experience.

 

[CLOSEDGermantexan]

I also have a question.

So I’ve been wondering if you can get some decent gains with just pumping. I’ve gotten used to it and I’m up to about 30 min a day.
I’d also do more if it’s safe. I just appreciate the fact that I can do other stuff while pumping.

thx
germantexan

 

[M9ter]

Hello sir, I'm Chinese.And I want to know how can I get my gain?My penis size is about 12-13cm.I want to get 19-20cm.Is this a hard goal?How can I do for this?I'm 20 years old now.

Hi,

Of course I can help..! There are a few keys to fast and continued growth for those who want more than 1” of length gains.

The first is to avoid any manual (hand only, no equipment assist) exercises...they heavily load the tissues (hands produce way more than 4-10 lbs of required force to see tissue cellular division) which then respond by thickening which in turn causes any device you use to be less effective. I see this over and over with guys who plateau after ignoring all advice and doing manual work to get their newbie gains. Very few manual guys stick with it to see serious length gains. Look into devices that produce even tension over long hours of wear time. I would provide company names and links here but they would be removed. Search for vacuum cup extenders or hangers, as these are the safest devices on the market besides weight rings (expensive).

The second key is spending enough time under tension AFTER you get your newbie (fast initial) gains of .5-1.5”. Newbie gains are easy, the following extra inches are a labor of love. Forget about wearing a device for an hour a day with rest days and expecting 3+ inches a year....you would be amazed how many think that works! Apply the concept of shockloading (brief girth routine to help break down the tissues done before any stretching session) throughout your length work for best results, as it will cause the force to be focused onto the ligaments which are often hard to lengthen.

The third key is consistency....rest days are not truly length growth days, but erection quality improvement days. Science has proven you grow the most while under tension via cytogenesis (cellular repair and growth cycle). When you rest, you recover EQ at the expense of allowing the body time to heal and adapt (thicken) to the force/weight you are applying.....reversing micro-tearing and slowing progress overall. Let it get thicker, and it gets harder and harder to lengthen. Ride the micro-tearing or "Fatigue" as others call it to see the fastest gains. Hit your length goals (or get within .25-.5” of them), assess your girth needs, then start up on girth and stop length work....length adds girth and girth cements length by resisting any shrinkage after PE has ceased. Roughly 1" length gain gets you about .25" in extra girth, 1" girth gain nets about .25" in length gain.

Lastly, expect slight shrinkage (body retracts a fraction of the length pulled free and inflammation from PE subsides) on average of .25" in each dimension after PE has stopped, with some reporting up to .5" max loss. Happened to me too. For that reason, over shoot your goals slightly to prevent that loss and maintain your target goals. To get an accurate loss rate you would; stop, assess your loss rate over a few months of inactivity, then restart if gains are still needed, continue PE until the overshoot point is reached. In 2001, I was 8x6. In 2015 when I restarted PE I was still 8x6…so that approach does work quite well. Remember you are responsible for your own safety, so ever use excess force during your PE journey..!!!

M9

 

[M9ter]

I also have a question.

So I’ve been wondering if you can get some decent gains with just pumping. I’ve gotten used to it and I’m up to about 30 min a day.
I’d also do more if it’s safe. I just appreciate the fact that I can do other stuff while pumping.

thx
germantexan

Hi,

Pumps have AMAZING...advertising...hahaha! They've been around for over 100 years in basically the same configuration. They promise fast results but too often produce edema, partial to full ED over time (friends are long term pumpers), and very slow progress versus other methods like manual routines or cable clamping for example. To be sure, they do work but at a much slower rate. To make those sessions as beneficial as possible, avoid pumping at pressures higher than about 8 Hg to prevent blistering. People do get results at higher pressure, but increase the risk for damage. If you want length, use a cylinder with a diameter the same as your erect or fully flaccid width so that the pull is only in a linear direction. Want girth, size it to be about 1" wider than your goal circumference. So that means take your goal girth and add 1", then convert it to diameter. Lastly, if you begin to see your erection quality (EQ) drop, take rest days to regain it. Hope that helps...!

 

[Jianhai Shou]

Hi,

Of course I can help..! There are a few keys to fast and continued growth for those who want more than 1” of length gains.

The first is to avoid any manual (hand only, no equipment assist) exercises...they heavily load the tissues (hands produce way more than 4-10 lbs of required force to see tissue cellular division) which then respond by thickening which in turn causes any device you use to be less effective. I see this over and over with guys who plateau after ignoring all advice and doing manual work to get their newbie gains. Very few manual guys stick with it to see serious length gains. Look into devices that produce even tension over long hours of wear time. I would provide company names and links here but they would be removed. Search for vacuum cup extenders or hangers, as these are the safest devices on the market besides weight rings (expensive).

The second key is spending enough time under tension AFTER you get your newbie (fast initial) gains of .5-1.5”. Newbie gains are easy, the following extra inches are a labor of love. Forget about wearing a device for an hour a day with rest days and expecting 3+ inches a year....you would be amazed how many think that works! Apply the concept of shockloading (brief girth routine to help break down the tissues done before any stretching session) throughout your length work for best results, as it will cause the force to be focused onto the ligaments which are often hard to lengthen.

The third key is consistency....rest days are not truly length growth days, but erection quality improvement days. Science has proven you grow the most while under tension via cytogenesis (cellular repair and growth cycle). When you rest, you recover EQ at the expense of allowing the body time to heal and adapt (thicken) to the force/weight you are applying.....reversing micro-tearing and slowing progress overall. Let it get thicker, and it gets harder and harder to lengthen. Ride the micro-tearing or "Fatigue" as others call it to see the fastest gains. Hit your length goals (or get within .25-.5” of them), assess your girth needs, then start up on girth and stop length work....length adds girth and girth cements length by resisting any shrinkage after PE has ceased. Roughly 1" length gain gets you about .25" in extra girth, 1" girth gain nets about .25" in length gain.

Lastly, expect slight shrinkage (body retracts a fraction of the length pulled free and inflammation from PE subsides) on average of .25" in each dimension after PE has stopped, with some reporting up to .5" max loss. Happened to me too. For that reason, over shoot your goals slightly to prevent that loss and maintain your target goals. To get an accurate loss rate you would; stop, assess your loss rate over a few months of inactivity, then restart if gains are still needed, continue PE until the overshoot point is reached. In 2001, I was 8x6. In 2015 when I restarted PE I was still 8x6…so that approach does work quite well. Remember you are responsible for your own safety, so ever use excess force during your PE journey..!!!

M9

OK，thanks for your advice，sir.I'm doing some jelqs now and should I avoid any manual exercises?

 

[mistergeorge]

Hey guys,

In the interest of increasing the knowledge base and communication within the PE community I'm here participating in an exchange with Big AL, who appeared in AMA on Reddit last week. I'm visiting now to answer any questions as best I can about PE. My background in PE goes back 25 years now, beginning in the 1990s. My original measurements were 5.5x4.25 (BPSFL) and are currently 9.25 BPSFL, 8.75x6.75-7 (BPEL). Cumulative time to achieve that was about 5.5 years in total. I advocate for the safest and most efficient PE methods available, so no drugs, pumping, chemicals, etc were used in my routines nor do I teach them. I'm a founding member and main moderator of Reddit's largest PE forum in 2017, with a membership currently over 50,000. I've counseled over 3500 men (2-5 new men per day, including holidays, since 2017) for free. I've been interviewed by both Men's Health Magazine and the BBC. Lastly, I'm also the author of the books, Monster 101 (Advice from a PE Veteran) and Monster 101 EVEN BIGGER. Glad to be here and help any way I can. My website for the book is www.enlargementunlimited.com. Thanks..!

Mod note: I have been given permission by Big Al to post/comment here.

M9

Hey M9. If you started PE in the 1990s I'm curious what kinds of resources you relied on for your starting point.

You've mentioned Danny France's Circle Device.

But for manual work did you ever get information from any of the first pay sites like Penis-Enlargement-Now aka PenileFitness, Big Penis, etc?

Do you remember Tom Hubbard's site?

Did you ever participate in the original PE Forums or the groups they spawned like Th***er's P**ce? Do you remember the newart forum? It was mostly a pumping forum, but possibly the very first PE forum of any orientation.

 

[watersnake]

Duly noted...!

I don't want to come across as glib, but can I give the often dozens of men monthly who write me about being injured from Jelqing your personal email address so you can tell them that? Sorry to be sharp about it, but I can't ignore my own injury nor the number of injuries I've had to counsel over the years. If you can be seriously injured by doing something wrong (even when you have been doing it for months), its a shitty exercise....LOL.

I read myriad injury reports on this and another board. The advice given- to completely rest- is almost always the worst thing you can do, and in many cases cements the injury. You need rich oxygenated blood flowing into that penis and the surrounding tissue to heal the injury. Please don't assume I have not been in the same pit that the worst injury sufferers are in. Few people know how low I have been, and you will never see the scar on my wrist.

 

[BigO]

I read myriad injury reports on this and another board. The advice given- to completely rest- is almost always the worst thing you can do, and in many cases cements the injury. You need rich oxygenated blood flowing into that penis and the surrounding tissue to heal the injury. Please don't assume I have not been in the same pit that the worst injury sufferers are in. Few people know how low I have been, and you will never see the scar on my wrist.

Not everything is the same for all people.

For the majority, rest is the very best thing. I also recieve many messages from men that have injured themselves and more times than not, they re-injure themselves then end up confessing they didnt leave it alone.

Once following instructions to allow natural healing, they usually report better progress with healing.

For most, just heat and no PE of any kind is the best answer.

Your scar on your wrist is not a valid arguing point,

 

[M9ter]

Does this mean if a guy starts out at 6 bpel and 5 nbpel that hell get to 5.5 - 6 bpel newbie gains and stay 6 bpel or is it your thinking that 6 bpel and 5 nbpel went or will go to 7 bpel and 6 bpsfl, and that it's simple hidden penis inside the body ,that isn't measured bpel?


Also in all my PE time I've only gained 0.25 inches, 0.5 at most in length. In addition, my base girth is 6, and has been since the first time I measured. I may have gained a lil bit from hanging but my primary focus is length, currently. So maybe a few shorter sets of compression hanging , maybe longer sets of vaccum hanging, and manuals for me to get my penis where it wants to be?

Hi,

What I mean is quite often if a guy is 6" BPEL and starts PE, chances are very good that in the next 6-12 months (sometimes much faster) they will be 7" BPEL due to the hidden length being pulled free. I've had guys see 1" gains in weeks of starting PE doing things randomly with only manuals..that's definitely hidden length being pulled free in my book. Your experience correlates to the observations in regards to men trying for length with above average girth. It can be considerably harder due to the increased mass. Its not impossible, but requires more work in terms of breaking down the tunica before your length work so that extra mass is weakened and less likely to cause resistance. Manuals will make that vacuum hanger less and less effective as extra mass is gained. So go for lighter force (to avoid thickening reaction) over time used with weakening techniques. If you do use the compression hanger, use it for short duration sessions, followed up by longer sessions with the VAC device to keep the micro-tears you created open longer.

 

[M9ter]

Hey M9. If you started PE in the 1990s I'm curious what kinds of resources you relied on for your starting point.

You've mentioned Danny France's Circle Device.

But for manual work did you ever get information from any of the first pay sites like Penis-Enlargement-Now aka PenileFitness, Big Penis, etc?

Do you remember Tom Hubbard's site?

Did you ever participate in the original PE Forums or the groups they spawned like Th***er's P**ce? Do you remember the newart forum? It was mostly a pumping forum, but possibly the very first PE forum of any orientation.

Hey man..!

Back then, when you searched "penis enlargement", 99% of it was jokes etc with the handful of forums that had PE as the discussion topic. No dedicated forums like Thunders really came on the map until a bit later, at least from my desperate searches for it online back then. So I really had was a handful of instructions, all explaining how to jelq. The Circle Device came in late 90's and was a godsend when I found it. OH...!!!! I STILL have the original1990's sales brochure for it if guys want to see a scan of it..! Very expensive due to the pure pewter construction. I still have the 2 pound model I modded from back then, one of the few PE pieces I kept from that time period. I have photos of my PE museum collection posted on reddit by the way...haha. I invented the Wrecking Ball to resurrect that concept for a new generation to benefit from. Those sites were around, but other than lurking I never really participated actively due to worries over privacy. The Hubbard site and NewArt (fetish site looking back for me) Pumping brings back some interesting memories from those days. SO many theories and concepts thrown around, and I had to have tried all of them at least once...( : Lurked most of them including becoming a member back when MOS first opened up (Before DLD really sold out, and I got to witness his infamous cut & paste "enlargement" photos), but only really got active with PE forums when I joined Thunders as M8ter a few years ago. Crazy times in the PE world man..!

 

[M9ter]

I read myriad injury reports on this and another board. The advice given- to completely rest- is almost always the worst thing you can do, and in many cases cements the injury. You need rich oxygenated blood flowing into that penis and the surrounding tissue to heal the injury. Please don't assume I have not been in the same pit that the worst injury sufferers are in. Few people know how low I have been, and you will never see the scar on my wrist.

Hey,

I'm legitimately curious here about your solution to jelqing injuries. The correct answer of course is to NOT jelq in the first place..that's quite obvious. So you're saying what, that its a good idea to ignore the advice given by most medical professionals? What do you propose instead of rest? Always collecting experiences, so I truly want to know your thoughts since it might help others who have been injured. I've literally torn a vein from the side of my shaft while dry jelqing and bled internally.,...so I have clue what you've been through.

 

[PEispossible]

Hi,

What I mean is quite often if a guy is 6" BPEL and starts PE, chances are very good that in the next 6-12 months (sometimes much faster) they will be 7" BPEL due to the hidden length being pulled free. I've had guys see 1" gains in weeks of starting PE doing things randomly with only manuals..that's definitely hidden length being pulled free in my book. Your experience correlates to the observations in regards to men trying for length with above average girth. It can be considerably harder due to the increased mass. Its not impossible, but requires more work in terms of breaking down the tunica before your length work so that extra mass is weakened and less likely to cause resistance. Manuals will make that vacuum hanger less and less effective as extra mass is gained. So go for lighter force (to avoid thickening reaction) over time used with weakening techniques. If you do use the compression hanger, use it for short duration sessions, followed up by longer sessions with the VAC device to keep the micro-tears you created open longer.

It seems it is considerably more difficult to gain length, as I've been hanging consistently since November 2018. This is three and a half years of nonstop hanging and at I'd say 2/5 th of an inch gained . Generally These three years I've done four twenty minute sets a day with little length gains.

Currently I',last month, Ive been trying more manual stuff, changed my hanging angle to strictly btc to a couple sets straight out, because again, I got up t of 33 lbs BTC and just stretched skin ,it appears. I think I atta he'd a little closer to base , so now if in doubt, Ive been attaching closer to halfway and closer conoral ridge. Does it make sense that straight out angle would give one more tunica growth than BTC?

You mention a vac hanger device. How much time can be spent in one,? I know some say 30 mins and some an hour and limited weight like only 15 lbs?

I very well could be on the end of the tough collagen bell curve I hope not, but not seeing gains and putting in the work. So Bib says it's possible I could gain but it may take some intense hanging heavy weights . At some point or the collagen tissue will fail and deform but it can cause gritted teeth, painful hanging. I e hung like that before but I'd prefer not too. But if it's the only way I'll have to do it.

Do you think I could have to take these extreme measures for gaining?

 

[M9ter]

OK，thanks for your advice，sir.I'm doing some jelqs now and should I avoid any manual exercises?

Hi,

In my experience, avoid standard jelqing and switch to the much safer timed pressure holds while incorporating devices. I've had a great many guys get 2" or more using this approach, so its been proven to be viable on the Reddit forum.

 

[M9ter]

It seems it is considerably more difficult to gain length, as I've been hanging consistently since November 2018. This is three and a half years of nonstop hanging and at I'd say 2/5 th of an inch gained . Generally These three years I've done four twenty minute sets a day with little length gains.

Currently I',last month, Ive been trying more manual stuff, changed my hanging angle to strictly btc to a couple sets straight out, because again, I got up t of 33 lbs BTC and just stretched skin ,it appears. I think I atta he'd a little closer to base , so now if in doubt, Ive been attaching closer to halfway and closer conoral ridge. Does it make sense that straight out angle would give one more tunica growth than BTC?

You mention a vac hanger device. How much time can be spent in one,? I know some say 30 mins and some an hour and limited weight like only 15 lbs?

I very well could be on the end of the tough collagen bell curve I hope not, but not seeing gains and putting in the work. So Bib says it's possible I could gain but it may take some intense hanging heavy weights . At some point or the collagen tissue will fail and deform but it can cause gritted teeth, painful hanging. I e hung like that before but I'd prefer not too. But if it's the only way I'll have to do it.

Do you think I could have to take these extreme measures for gaining?

Hey,

Essentially you've hit a plateau, but there are ways to get beyond it. As I've said elsewhere on this AMA, incorporating some form of expansion routine used for girth will weaken the tunica and chambers and can greatly benefit your progress. Combining that practice with more time under tension can really help keep your PE journey going. Some vac hangers and extenders are designed to be worn for multiple hours if the tension is 10 lbs or less. Its generally a good idea to use the device for an hour, remove it to restore circulation, then reapply, You can do that for many hours if the weight is low. The higher the weight, the less time you can tolerate under stress usually. Also, the higher the weight, the greater the chance for injury. I've hung up to 45 lbs with the most powerful hanger available (max load 100+ lbs) and found it worked better as a shockloading method before discovering I didn't need near that level of weight to replicate BIB's success. His success was based on the time he wore the device, not the amount of weight. I've seen countless guys get 2" of length gains just from extending/light ADS/hanging for hours and using tissues weakening methods, so the practice I describe is well proven.

 

[Azmike]

M9ter:

QUOTE=Azmike;n3260245]Your experience and observations seem consistent with my experience. What do you mean by “hidden length exhausted”? Stretched ligaments or actually exposing a portion of the hidden penis?

What is your experience with heat? Any experience with ultrasound? PRP injections? Gainswave?




[/QUOTE]

 

[mistergeorge]

Hey man..!

Back then, when you searched "penis enlargement", 99% of it was jokes etc with the handful of forums that had PE as the discussion topic. No dedicated forums like Thunders really came on the map until a bit later, at least from my desperate searches for it online back then. So I really had was a handful of instructions, all explaining how to jelq. The Circle Device came in late 90's and was a godsend when I found it. OH...!!!! I STILL have the original1990's sales brochure for it if guys want to see a scan of it..! Very expensive due to the pure pewter construction. I still have the 2 pound model I modded from back then, one of the few PE pieces I kept from that time period. I have photos of my PE museum collection posted on reddit by the way...haha. I invented the Wrecking Ball to resurrect that concept for a new generation to benefit from. Those sites were around, but other than lurking I never really participated actively due to worries over privacy. The Hubbard site and NewArt (fetish site looking back for me) Pumping brings back some interesting memories from those days. SO many theories and concepts thrown around, and I had to have tried all of them at least once...( : Lurked most of them including becoming a member back when MOS first opened up (Before DLD really sold out, and I got to witness his infamous cut & paste "enlargement" photos), but only really got active with PE forums when I joined Thunders as M8ter a few years ago. Crazy times in the PE world man..!

Thanks for this reply, M9ter !

I wasn't exactly around back then myself, but I've made PE History my specialty over the years, digging deep into archives and spending a lot of time collecting things from decades of marketing.

I really appreciate the insight and memories. I'll visit your PE museum posts on Reddit.

I would LOVE to see a quality scan of the sales brochure for The Circle Device. The original website is archived in the Way Back Machine on the InternetArchive dotorg. I understand that external links are prohibited here so I won't post a direct link, but if you go to the WayBackMachine and type in a valid URL for dfranceinc dotcom you'll be able to view the original site as it existed from 1998 to 2016.

Please do post that brochure or get it to me privately. Really interesting stuff to me.

 

[M9ter]

M9ter:

QUOTE=Azmike;n3260245]Your experience and observations seem consistent with my experience. What do you mean by “hidden length exhausted”? Stretched ligaments or actually exposing a portion of the hidden penis?

What is your experience with heat? Any experience with ultrasound? PRP injections? Gainswave?


Hey,

The first inch is, by general consensus, only length pulled free from the body due to often dramatic nature (1" in a month in some cases) of the length gain, including what I observed when first starting out. So its exposing length from within the body. I tried heat before, during, and after routines. I found heating beforehand actually slowed my progress since it seemed to allow the tissues to flex instead of micro-tear. See, PE is the opposite of body building. You heat prior to avoid injury, but with PE you are trying to cause, "damage" in a controlled manner. So I found heat applied during and/or after routines worked to trigger the inflammatory response and in turn speed healing. Not mandatory, but exposure to barely tolerable water (use thermometer..ouch..!) following a girth routine can do wonders. Untrasound was touted as the next big thing when it first came out. Many tried it and found it either wasn't going to work since it could not expand the tissues outward (girth) or deep enough for their needs (length). Some still swear by it and I will say PE is ALL about finding what works for you and sticking with it. Chemical PE is not my thing, so I have friends who have done just about every kind of chemical out there and report back. Priapism injections can be expensive, have side effects, and produce the megallophallus shape (small glans, hyper enlarged mid-shaft, narrow base). When one guy had a cardiac episode after trying the latest injection, I walked away. Gainswave appears to be a fad and from those who have done it supposedly it does not penetrate deep enough to have the desired effect. These aren't my experiences, as I've mentioned, but from other users who write to me. ..They have a hell of alot more money than I have to blow on PE..haha!.