I don't know what to do anymore. Lots of sh*t

[a465]

I see someone in the thread mentioned Deferol as a possible solution. Now I looked up that product and one of the main ingredients is Griffonia seed extract, which is 5-htp. Now I've tried that and it works well for me. And as I understand it acts similarly to a SSRI only without the side effects.

So you might want to try 5-htp or Tryptophan, which acts in a similar fashion, before you go to a more serious option like surgery.

 

[wheelbite]

Edit: had a mean post about your attitude, but i didnt read all of this so Im sure you dont have it anymore, so i deleted it.

anyway, I have had life long PE(only 20, however) and here is what I did:


when people have problems with PE that are genetic, it has to deal with lower serotonin amounts, so thats why anti-depressants work well with PE.
I didn't go that route, because if you know anything about those drugs is that they deplete your serotonin in the brain basically, causing more damage when you go off them.

I went the natural route with things, here's the list of things I have done.
1. stopped masturbating for a period of time (about once a month for around ~4 months)
I know you guys will just think that is stupid, but I am getting a degree in neuroscience, and your body can mess up its "homeostasis" you could say by ejaculating too much, depleting a decent amount of magnesium, and some neurotransmitters that you need. You might not know it but your body is probably addicted to the orgasm, and no addiction is good. But if give it time it can go back to normal again. It's called neuroplasticity
2.stopped watching all porn
3.took the list of these supplements
5-htp

Magnesium glycinate (most important in my opinion, since glycinate absorbs the best, and in the western diet about 90% of the population is deficient.

liquid fishoil (I take around 10mL, which differs from supplement to supplement, but i get around 2 grams of DHA and 1 gram of EPA a day.

l-methionine (natural antihistamine

and the regular multivitamin/vitamin C

go to google and type in
"magnesium premature ejaculation"
"antihistamine premature ejaculation"
"serotonin premature ejaculation"


you will see scientific journals stating that all of those can effect PE.
I think magnesium is the most beneficial, since it is the single most important supplement to take when you work on those PC/BC muscle exercises.
If any of you guys knew this already, tramadol is a great anti-PE drug, mostly because it lets you relax those tense muscles during sex.

well! Magnesium does the exact same thing. look it up. It has helped me so much.
If you don't believe you have a magnesium deficiency, think again. America has been promoting calcium by milk for a while now, and calcium and magnesium oppose eachother, in the sense that if you have too much calcium (which most people do) it makes the magnesium not be able to be absorbed in the body.
anyway, magnesium effects so many things, also helps promote serotonin. and relaxs you!
Magnesium specifically relaxs smooth muscle (PC/BC is a smooth muscle), while calcium contracts it.
It will help you be able to relax your pc/bc so much better!

HOWEVER your body needs time with these supplements, it takes about 4-6 months to get rid of the magnesium deficiency, however you will see results quick.
so I advise not masturbating much (like i said, i did once a month) because ejaculation has a lot of magnesium in it.

after you feel its the right time again, practice edging/ballooning/reverse kegels and what not.
You will see a 100% improvement, and be able to improve even more since you have a healthy brain/penis!

anyway, if all of this still fails, which it didn't for me, but lets say it does.
the one thing this is scientifically proven is that all these supplements help your heart and blood flow.
you will have such a raging boner. you could use some sort of de-sensitizing spray and will never lose your boner!!
such a good deal!

I haven't had to do that, however.

 

[dejaview]

I dont what to say as this seems like such a depressing thread in lots of ways. And as 411by7 said earlier on , many people would love to have a libido like yours. But there is something def wrong with your overall mindset toward sex in general. Age aside, and I was there not too long ago myself. This whole ego driven, and the rant about "the girl likes to be fucked fast and then hard and then my friends said this and loads" man its really hard to understand how you can actually derive any joy from sex in the first place. And maybe therein lies the problem. You should try as another poster said " be man enough to control the situation" and believe me thats what most want from their guy. A man in charge. Not freaking out all the time wondering about putting on the cream and if will it ruin the moment or will I look good or will I take too long in the bathroom etc...... Dude I hate to break it to you but thats usually for the ladies....
Honestly, you sound to me that feel the pressure to have sex, but really are not too sure if you do, put so much pressure on yourself that you PE constantly and then look at pretty much everything about your issue, and in the greatest possible detail mind with nothing left out, and then resign yourself, at least the posts I read to being a hopeless case. I dont really get the impression that you are letting your body speak to you, and let your over analytical mind get the better of you. No disrespect okay. Try and relax a little more and have confidence in your nice looks and maybe try and not take yourself so seriously. To be able to look at girls and lovemaking with some more lightness and not be so serious about it might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[naturesucks]

Okay, so I visited the urologist the other day. As I predicted a couple post ago, it was one of these hard-cunts know-it-all faggots.

I sit there, and theres this serious-as-hell old cunt and an old lady at the side, also sitting on a table. Im asked by him:

-"So, what brings you here".
I reply:
-"I have a problem with my frenulum. It's too short and gets annoying during sex. Can't fully forget about it during sex, because it can get really tense and it may tear"
Urologist:
-"So you need a surgery".
Me:
-"Yes, I guess?"

Then theres this awkward as hell pause for like a minute or even more. He's typing sh*t on his computer at the speed of a 12 year old. Finally it's over and he gives me a paper, which is basically the stuff for the surgery.

-"You need to read this at home. Sign here and there. You'll get a call."
Me:
-"How much till the surgery? I don't want to wait for months. (don't want to get it done near the summer, since I guess you need weeks till full recovery and I couldn't fuck girls and swim at the pool/beach, hence ruining my summer).
Urologist:
-"We don't know."
I insist a bit because that was a pretty fucking vague answer:
-We don't know. Just wait and if in 2 months you didn't got a call, come again and ask for it downstairs" (sh*t along the lines)
-Ok

Then another pause and I ask before leaving:

-Btw is there any relationship between having a tense frenulum and having difficulties in lasting too long?
Urologist:
No, it's all on the mind, sexual education. (ignoring research that show evidence of connection between the two, plus a shitload of other stuff).
Me:
-But i've tried everything. Has been going like this for years
Urologist ignores this fact. I give up. Can't be fucked to insist to someone who obviously has never suffered real PE.

I just was having that vibe of both wanting me to leave already minutes ago. I was all down to talk about it, to get technical. Discuss mangesium deficiency, histamine levels, the usage of SSRI's and so on. But this is not an easy subject and it's even harder when the cunt isn't cooperating and asking you anything. Fucking retards made me wait for weeks for this? And it was a cloudy and rainy day aswell, had to pay for a taxi and so on. Btw, did I mention that they didn't even check my penis out?
Thats socialised free health-care for you.

I asked if I could get the surgery faster on a private clinic and the woman said: "You can get it done tomorrow if you want but you have to pay." Then I basically left thinking "I hope they threat you better than they do here, cunts" as I opened the door and left kinda frustrated and pissed off.

That's all.

At the moment, I still have to read the papers, and decide if I'll wait and get the free surgery or go to a private urologist (hopefully more talkative, kind and with a clue on real PE).

I see someone in the thread mentioned Deferol as a possible solution. Now I looked up that product and one of the main ingredients is Griffonia seed extract, which is 5-htp. Now I've tried that and it works well for me. And as I understand it acts similarly to a SSRI only without the side effects.

So you might want to try 5-htp or Tryptophan, which acts in a similar fashion, before you go to a more serious option like surgery.

I'll need to browse around the net and check experiences with that 'Deferol' thing. I hope you are not one of those people who register at forums to promote their products (that was your first post).

In any case thanks for the help, will look it up.

Edit: had a mean post about your attitude, but i didnt read all of this so Im sure you dont have it anymore, so i deleted it.

anyway, I have had life long PE(only 20, however) and here is what I did:


when people have problems with PE that are genetic, it has to deal with lower serotonin amounts, so thats why anti-depressants work well with PE.
I didn't go that route, because if you know anything about those drugs is that they deplete your serotonin in the brain basically, causing more damage when you go off them.

I went the natural route with things, here's the list of things I have done.
1. stopped masturbating for a period of time (about once a month for around ~4 months)
I know you guys will just think that is stupid, but I am getting a degree in neuroscience, and your body can mess up its "homeostasis" you could say by ejaculating too much, depleting a decent amount of magnesium, and some neurotransmitters that you need. You might not know it but your body is probably addicted to the orgasm, and no addiction is good. But if give it time it can go back to normal again. It's called neuroplasticity
2.stopped watching all porn
3.took the list of these supplements
5-htp

Magnesium glycinate (most important in my opinion, since glycinate absorbs the best, and in the western diet about 90% of the population is deficient.

liquid fishoil (I take around 10mL, which differs from supplement to supplement, but i get around 2 grams of DHA and 1 gram of EPA a day.

l-methionine (natural antihistamine

and the regular multivitamin/vitamin C

go to google and type in
"magnesium premature ejaculation"
"antihistamine premature ejaculation"
"serotonin premature ejaculation"


you will see scientific journals stating that all of those can effect PE.
I think magnesium is the most beneficial, since it is the single most important supplement to take when you work on those PC/BC muscle exercises.
If any of you guys knew this already, tramadol is a great anti-PE drug, mostly because it lets you relax those tense muscles during sex.

well! Magnesium does the exact same thing. look it up. It has helped me so much.
If you don't believe you have a magnesium deficiency, think again. America has been promoting calcium by milk for a while now, and calcium and magnesium oppose eachother, in the sense that if you have too much calcium (which most people do) it makes the magnesium not be able to be absorbed in the body.
anyway, magnesium effects so many things, also helps promote serotonin. and relaxs you!
Magnesium specifically relaxs smooth muscle (PC/BC is a smooth muscle), while calcium contracts it.
It will help you be able to relax your pc/bc so much better!

HOWEVER your body needs time with these supplements, it takes about 4-6 months to get rid of the magnesium deficiency, however you will see results quick.
so I advise not masturbating much (like i said, i did once a month) because ejaculation has a lot of magnesium in it.

after you feel its the right time again, practice edging/ballooning/reverse kegels and what not.
You will see a 100% improvement, and be able to improve even more since you have a healthy brain/penis!

anyway, if all of this still fails, which it didn't for me, but lets say it does.
the one thing this is scientifically proven is that all these supplements help your heart and blood flow.
you will have such a raging boner. you could use some sort of de-sensitizing spray and will never lose your boner!!
such a good deal!

I haven't had to do that, however.

Thanks a lot man. Great post, lot's of sh*t to try out.
But gotta mention: Im not American, i live in Spain so my diet is mediterranean. I may be lacking on magnessium anyway tho, since i've heard most people don't meet the requeriments even if the diet is near perfect. I don't know what foods have magnesium. I started to eat 8-10 nuts a day recently since apparently they have magnesium. Will still look up at supplements, but I need you to tell me what are the best brands to buy and the exact dosage I should take. Also, did you got any sort of analysis before taking them or you just went for it? Is there any risk of having too much of a particular compound in your system? How do you monitor this?

About not fapping: I haven't masturbated for 26 days now. The first week was kinda hard, but now, even if horny at times, I feel like I could go on for days. Will try to keep it like this. Im not having sex anytime soon since it's pointless atm until I can fuck properly, so i'll not be ejaculating anytime soon (I guess)

Posts by spanky and miolner:

I've tried everything you've said. No, I don't put myself any pressure in how im going to perform. I tried that approach of "going with a neutral mind, you go there and see what happens, enjoy".
Guess what happened? I came as fast.
Confidence: All have confidence enough to get really hot girls naked. I don't have social anxiety or anything, I can talk and all that jizz with no problems. My PC muscle is hard enough to be tensed for near 2 minutes straight. I can chill and get hot girls on bed. I can relax my PC muscle all day unless my cock is being stimulated, which makes me want to feel like im about to cum real fast, so the muscle clenches by reflex unless I stop all stimulation because the pleasure is not bearable. I just cum fast. At this point, im sure is just the sh*t inside my body makes me cum fast. That's all. I need to balance it out by the ingest of external chemical compounds such as magnesium, histamine inhibitors and everything that sicience has proven to have a relationship with premature ejaculation to balance things out, and hopefully being able to please a girl for more than 10 minutes.

 

[alexcapade]

See a therapist, you seem to have more problems then just premature ejaculation.

 

[Minuteman]

See a therapist, you seem to have more problems then just premature ejaculation.

What?

Care to explain that in more than one sentence,no ofence ment, i'm curious?

 

[naturesucks]

What?

Care to explain that in more than one sentence,no ofence ment, i'm curious?

inb4 he pretends to know me from what/the way I write stuff and explains how I have anxiety problems, confidence problems, im over-analitical and other cliched-failed psychoanalyst stuff.

 

[wheelbite]

yeah, that is a good start.

about the magnesium deal, nuts and dark leafy green vegetables are high in magnesium.
However the earths soil (at least most of it in america, I'm not sure in spain, but I bet it is similar) is so depleted of minerals because of they way farming has become in the past few decades and even before. this means that you probably don't even get enough of magnesium even if you eat foods high in magnesium.
the FDA approved amount of magnesium is around 400 mg a day, but a lot of research suggests that it should be higher, around the 800-1000 range (which is unreasonable if you don't take it in some vitamin form)

I have done tons of research and found that magnesium glycinate was the best for this sort of thing, it is highly absorbed compared to other magnesiums (magnesium oxide on the other hand barely absorbs.)
the best supplement I found so far is right here

http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-High-Absorption-Magnesium-120-Tablets/15?at=0

You just have to make sure you know the "elemental magnesium amount, since that is what matters.
a lot of companies scam you by saying, "Oh! this has 400 mg of magnesium glycinate! which is true, but it probably has around 40 mg elemental magnesium in it.
I would take around 600-800 mg of (elemental) magnesium a day for a few months.

for l-methionine you can find tons of places for rather cheap, puritanspride.com has a good deal on it.
5-htp is the same, lots of places have it. make sure you get the kind that is straight 5-htp. a lot of them add vitamin b6 with it, but that is actually bad since it competes for the same enzymes I believe so it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier as much. so if you take a multi-vitamin take it in the morning and 5-htp at night.

here is the fish oil product I use
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Answe...tural-Orange-Flavor-16-fl-oz-480-ml/7908?at=0

its cheap for how much it is, and liquid form is usually better since you get a higher concentrate of it.
i usually take 10mL of it a day.

just letting you know about the anti-histamine theory, that it also takes your body a long time to get back to "normal" histamine levels, some say even a year.
so just be patient! all of these products help your body obtain healthy levels of neurotransmitters, so it will be good for you anyways.

I don't think I was ever depressed or had much anxiety, but I feel 10x better then I did before with these supplements. I have only a decent diet, and never got any magnesium really before this past 5 months, and it feels real good!

it is good you have stopped masturbating for a period of time!
since I am quite bored, I'll go into detail why I think this works. It sort of has to deal with neuroplasticity like I said in my previous post

neuroplasticity is an alteration of a nervous system with the sole purpose to adapt to certain inputs. Neuroplasticity is referred to the brain rewiring in response to changes in environment, experience or brain chemistry. It is essential to learning and memory. Neurons, if stimulated, will release neurotrophins - also known as nerve growth factor(NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor(BDNF). Neurotrophic factors are capable of regrowing damaged neurons. BDNF can mediate the neuroplasticity and influence learning, cognitive behavior, and memory.

A chronic sexual over-stimulation will induce over-release of BDNF, which will alter the brain and the synaptic plasticity and lead to addictive behavior. The neuronal plasticity will weaken the parasympathetic, vegal, and serotonin and GABA nervous modulation and control over the adrenergic, noradrenergic, and sympathetic nervous function. The over-stimulation on certain nervous systems and functions as the dopaminergic, noradrenergic, and glutaminergic will modify the brain function and lead to addiction and psychological disorders
Sexual addiction is due to neuroplasticity of the PVN (Hypothalamic paraventicular nucleus) where we observe innervations of different nervous components and systems - noradrenergic(norepinehprine), oxytocinergic, adrenergic(epinephrine), autonomic(parasympathetic and sympathetic), dopamin, acetylcholine, glutamate, vagal, Nitric Oxidergic, Serotonin, and GABAergic. The nervous remodeling itself occurs under the frequent stimulation of prostaglandin E2, oxytocin, and norepinephrine, while the serotonin and GABA nervous modulation are too weak to modulate the dopamine-norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion and control the norepinephrine firing. Norepinephrine activates certain cytokins and protein kinases in the Locus Caruleus for prostaglandin E2 production, which along with oxytocin lets you feel high and aroused. The enzyme dopamine beta-hydroxylase(increased by sex or masturbation) will constantly convert dopamine to norepinephrine to keep you in constant sexual thoughts and arousal, leading to addiction. Prostaglandin E2 if in excessive amounts is considered extremely harmful. However, it is vital for the regulation of the synaptic activity and plasticity, it actually accelerates the neuroplasticity. You need prostaglandin E2 for learning, and memory. Proper levels of prostaglandin E2 can be used for many things and will promote great results, if you study hard your brain will adapt to memorizing the concents in a short time because of the release of prostalgandin E2 and norepinephrine. If you use prostaglandin E2 for sex, though, you will end up severely addicted, and will have extreme difficulties to discontinue, since your brain is already wired. High levels of prostaglandin E2 will also enhance the cell membrane excitability and degrade the short term memory and spatial navigation. Moreover, excessive cortisol will inhibit the neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, thus impairing the hyppocampus-dependent learning and memory abilities.

to be honest you don't have to read that wall of text, but...yeah. It basically is a lot of gibberish, but you might be able to understand a little.

basically what that means is that when you masturbate a decent amount without proper chemicals in the brain you can get addicted to masturbating (like all other things) which leads to changes in the brain (again, like all other things) but it can have a negative effect on it. for example, addictions usually stimulate norepinehprine, and when involved with sex, triggers ejaculation quicker.

the thing that magnesium is good for, is that not only it helps relax smooth muscle (pc/bc muscle,) it also inhibits norepinehprine, so it will help, a lot.

and if you actually read that wall of text, prostaglandin e2 is harmful if you have a lot more of it then prostaglandin e1.
prostaglandin e1 is good for many things, including erection strength. a lot of body builders supplement themselves with GLA, which produces prostaglandin e1.

But Fish oil also helps with that. and fish oil helps lower the amount of prostaglandin e2 produced to a healthy ratio to e1.

so yeah, thats why it is good to get back your healthy brain before you start sex again.

 

[alexcapade]

inb4 he pretends to know me from what/the way I write stuff and explains how I have anxiety problems, confidence problems, im over-analitical and other cliched-failed psychoanalyst stuff.

Actually you have problems facing reality, you live in your head.

 

[gsd]

hey dude, as I've said before I'm just like you getting off very fast.
I have stopped masturbating for 1 week because I have a feeling that may be my PC muscle is always intense
(I kegel a lot and sometimes I just did it unconsciously) and when come to have sex the PC muscle cannot hold it for long
because it has too much intense already, so if it is relaxed may be when I'm about to cum I can hold it longer.
Anyway, it is a false idea , I still cum fast lol.

But what I've discovered was I really do have a mind problem of "I WANT TO CUM". (At first I don't believe I have this issue)
I noticed that I WILL kegel to get the penis to most erect state as fast as possible and then cum, which I have done almost unconscious.
I don't know why I can feel this after stop masturbating ,but it is one clue for me why I have this "cum fast" issue.
May be the way to fix this is to stop masturbate and when I can feel that I do kegel to cum fast then I have to stop.

Hope this help you a bit.
Sorry, I have a bad english tho.

 

[Minuteman]

About not fapping: I haven't masturbated for 26 days now. The first week was kinda hard, but now, even if horny at times, I feel like I could go on for days. Will try to keep it like this. Im not having sex anytime soon since it's pointless atm until I can fuck properly, so i'll not be ejaculating anytime soon (I guess)

I see no point in this, it is one thing not to masturbate when you simply don't feel the need, but it is another thing to deny your self "pleasure". I other words that isn't healthy, if you feel the need to masturbate you should.

I haven't masturbated in two or three weeks now, but that is simply because i don't feel any need to (in other words i'm not feeling horny or anything), I'm not justifying my abstination in comparison to your's but you really should not do that, because it won't fix anything, it might get thing even worse in some instances...

 

[mistydawn]

Most men think that women are putting the same value on intercourse that they do. That this is what sex is about. Men are thinking women want the same thing as they do. Women's bodies are capable of so much more than mens and therefore they are thinking about more than just intercourse. A low number of women actually have vaginal orgasms through intercourse. Think about that.. A low number of women actually have vaginal orgasms through intercourse. If you were not having orgasms through intercourse would you be putting as much into it? NO!

Young women are just doing what they think men want. They think sex is like porn, just like guys do. Young women are mainly looking to please the man. And women in general (not age specific) put a lot of emotional stuff into sex. For a whole lot of them it is ALL about the emotion and sex is just a way they try to get emotional stuff they crave. Sex can give an emotional high and women go to it like a drug.

 

[a465]

I'll need to browse around the net and check experiences with that 'Deferol' thing. I hope you are not one of those people who register at forums to promote their products (that was your first post).

In any case thanks for the help, will look it up.

No problem. And actually I've never tried Deferol and I probably never will. I was mentioning it because someone brought it up in this thread and I mentioned that one of the active ingredients is "Griffonia Seed Extract" (5-htp) which is something I have tried as well as tryptophan, which is converted into 5-htp. And from what I understand it acts similarly to a SSRI without the harmful side effects.

So I was recommending 5-htp or tryptophan as possible solutions.

 

[alexcapade]

Young women are mainly looking to please the man. And women in general (not age specific) put a lot of emotional stuff into sex. For a whole lot of them it is ALL about the emotion and sex is just a way they try to get emotional stuff they crave. Sex can give an emotional high and women go to it like a drug.

This post is blowing my mind.

 

[mike34]

hey, I think most Pre mature ejaculation is basicly the same story where being unable to last more then 2 minutes of constant masturbation is pretty common, especially watching porn when you have this condition. I have the same exact issue for about a year. you need dedication and commitment not only in watching what is happening in your penis and pelvic muscles, but also the feeling around your body.
1) stop watching porn, never use porn, you get distracted of what is going on in your body, put shower on sit on toilet and breath slowly and masturbate slowly.
2) Read up on breathing techniques as well as edging, because breathing will help spread the pleasure from the tip of your penis to your body.
3) this is probaly the hardest thing to do, which was for me, is always at least edge no less then 20minutes. no matter how quick you go to PONR. I would edge and never make it to 10minutes would either get so horny cause i reached PONR so many times i came or i got to bored because i relied on porn so much.
4) if it takes you up to 40seconds in a kegal to past the orgasmic stage. thats way to long. once you get to know your body holding a kegal should not last more then 5 seconds to hold ejaculation. it use to take me 20 second holds and result in retro ejaculation, once you get week after week of getting use to the urge and intense sensation of PONR it will gradually go to 5 second hold then probaly have retro problems then soon retro would disappear.
5) be consistent. i always do reverse kegals and edge 3X a week, tues, thurs,friday. if you keep days it will ruin your workout and if you workout to much it will also ruin your routine. all i do is my kegal/reverse during school in morning then at night right before shower, edge for 25min-40min depending on how i feel, sometimes just edge and cum at 20min sometimes i dry orgasm and 20 then dry orgasm in 5 min intervals. just keep changing routines beside the days just like you would in lifitng weights.

 

[naturesucks]

yeah, that is a good start.

about the magnesium deal, nuts and dark leafy green vegetables are high in magnesium.
However the earths soil (at least most of it in america, I'm not sure in spain, but I bet it is similar) is so depleted of minerals because of they way farming has become in the past few decades and even before. this means that you probably don't even get enough of magnesium even if you eat foods high in magnesium.
the FDA approved amount of magnesium is around 400 mg a day, but a lot of research suggests that it should be higher, around the 800-1000 range (which is unreasonable if you don't take it in some vitamin form)

I have done tons of research and found that magnesium glycinate was the best for this sort of thing, it is highly absorbed compared to other magnesiums (magnesium oxide on the other hand barely absorbs.)
the best supplement I found so far is right here

Doctor's Best, High Absorption Magnesium, 120 Tablets - iHerb.com

You just have to make sure you know the "elemental magnesium amount, since that is what matters.
a lot of companies scam you by saying, "Oh! this has 400 mg of magnesium glycinate! which is true, but it probably has around 40 mg elemental magnesium in it.
I would take around 600-800 mg of (elemental) magnesium a day for a few months.

for l-methionine you can find tons of places for rather cheap, puritanspride.com has a good deal on it.
5-htp is the same, lots of places have it. make sure you get the kind that is straight 5-htp. a lot of them add vitamin b6 with it, but that is actually bad since it competes for the same enzymes I believe so it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier as much. so if you take a multi-vitamin take it in the morning and 5-htp at night.

here is the fish oil product I use
Nature's Answer, Liquid Omega-3, Deep Sea Fish Oil EPA/DHA, Natural Orange Flavor, 16 fl oz (480 ml) - iHerb.com

its cheap for how much it is, and liquid form is usually better since you get a higher concentrate of it.
i usually take 10mL of it a day.

just letting you know about the anti-histamine theory, that it also takes your body a long time to get back to "normal" histamine levels, some say even a year.
so just be patient! all of these products help your body obtain healthy levels of neurotransmitters, so it will be good for you anyways.

I don't think I was ever depressed or had much anxiety, but I feel 10x better then I did before with these supplements. I have only a decent diet, and never got any magnesium really before this past 5 months, and it feels real good!

it is good you have stopped masturbating for a period of time!
since I am quite bored, I'll go into detail why I think this works. It sort of has to deal with neuroplasticity like I said in my previous post

neuroplasticity is an alteration of a nervous system with the sole purpose to adapt to certain inputs. Neuroplasticity is referred to the brain rewiring in response to changes in environment, experience or brain chemistry. It is essential to learning and memory. Neurons, if stimulated, will release neurotrophins - also known as nerve growth factor(NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor(BDNF). Neurotrophic factors are capable of regrowing damaged neurons. BDNF can mediate the neuroplasticity and influence learning, cognitive behavior, and memory.

A chronic sexual over-stimulation will induce over-release of BDNF, which will alter the brain and the synaptic plasticity and lead to addictive behavior. The neuronal plasticity will weaken the parasympathetic, vegal, and serotonin and GABA nervous modulation and control over the adrenergic, noradrenergic, and sympathetic nervous function. The over-stimulation on certain nervous systems and functions as the dopaminergic, noradrenergic, and glutaminergic will modify the brain function and lead to addiction and psychological disorders
Sexual addiction is due to neuroplasticity of the PVN (Hypothalamic paraventicular nucleus) where we observe innervations of different nervous components and systems - noradrenergic(norepinehprine), oxytocinergic, adrenergic(epinephrine), autonomic(parasympathetic and sympathetic), dopamin, acetylcholine, glutamate, vagal, Nitric Oxidergic, Serotonin, and GABAergic. The nervous remodeling itself occurs under the frequent stimulation of prostaglandin E2, oxytocin, and norepinephrine, while the serotonin and GABA nervous modulation are too weak to modulate the dopamine-norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion and control the norepinephrine firing. Norepinephrine activates certain cytokins and protein kinases in the Locus Caruleus for prostaglandin E2 production, which along with oxytocin lets you feel high and aroused. The enzyme dopamine beta-hydroxylase(increased by sex or masturbation) will constantly convert dopamine to norepinephrine to keep you in constant sexual thoughts and arousal, leading to addiction. Prostaglandin E2 if in excessive amounts is considered extremely harmful. However, it is vital for the regulation of the synaptic activity and plasticity, it actually accelerates the neuroplasticity. You need prostaglandin E2 for learning, and memory. Proper levels of prostaglandin E2 can be used for many things and will promote great results, if you study hard your brain will adapt to memorizing the concents in a short time because of the release of prostalgandin E2 and norepinephrine. If you use prostaglandin E2 for sex, though, you will end up severely addicted, and will have extreme difficulties to discontinue, since your brain is already wired. High levels of prostaglandin E2 will also enhance the cell membrane excitability and degrade the short term memory and spatial navigation. Moreover, excessive cortisol will inhibit the neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, thus impairing the hyppocampus-dependent learning and memory abilities.

to be honest you don't have to read that wall of text, but...yeah. It basically is a lot of gibberish, but you might be able to understand a little.

basically what that means is that when you masturbate a decent amount without proper chemicals in the brain you can get addicted to masturbating (like all other things) which leads to changes in the brain (again, like all other things) but it can have a negative effect on it. for example, addictions usually stimulate norepinehprine, and when involved with sex, triggers ejaculation quicker.

the thing that magnesium is good for, is that not only it helps relax smooth muscle (pc/bc muscle,) it also inhibits norepinehprine, so it will help, a lot.

and if you actually read that wall of text, prostaglandin e2 is harmful if you have a lot more of it then prostaglandin e1.
prostaglandin e1 is good for many things, including erection strength. a lot of body builders supplement themselves with GLA, which produces prostaglandin e1.

But Fish oil also helps with that. and fish oil helps lower the amount of prostaglandin e2 produced to a healthy ratio to e1.

so yeah, thats why it is good to get back your healthy brain before you start sex again.

wheelbite, thanks for that bro. Quality stuff. Sounds like you actually are studying this?

So to recapitulize before I order anything (I guess they send stuff to Spain and it's not too expensive, have to check it out still).

Magnessium:
Doctor's Best, High Absorption Magnesium, 120 Tablets - iHerb.com
Dose: 2 tablets/pills whatever.
When to take it: 1 at morning, other at night, after meals.

Fish Oil:
Nature's Answer, Liquid Omega-3, Deep Sea Fish Oil EPA/DHA, Natural Orange Flavor, 16 fl oz (480 ml) - iHerb.com
Dose: You said 10ml, (thats like 2 spoonfuls afaik?). I remember reading somewhere that you should take 5ml per 50lbs. Does this make sense? Im around 120lbs and I can see my abs clearly when I flex, so I guess around 12%bf? Joining gym soon btw, goal is to get at like 170lbs 10% in around 2-3 years.
When to take it: not sure. How about after the main meal at like 2 pm?

l-methionine
http://www.vitaviva.com/Store/product/L-Methionine,388,13,en.aspx
Brand is Swanson. Is this one as good as Doctor's Best?

As an alternative, i searched for "L-Methionine" on puritanspride.com and this one appeared:
http://www.puritan.com/en/amino-acid-supplements-082/l-methionine-500-mg-000140?NewPage=1&searchterm=L-Methionine&rdcnt=

Not sure what I should choose.

Dose & when to take it: I think you didn't told me on this one. Can't find it throught the thread.

5-htp
Found couple different brands aswell:
5-htp - VitaViva
5-HTP 100 mg. 60 Capsules | 5 HTPDoctor's Best, Best 5-HTP, 100 mg, 60 Veggie Caps - iHerb.com
And there are a lot more brands, specially on iherb.com

What one to buy? They come in different mg's quantity and I guess there are other differences. Those do not contain B6-Vitamin if I did read correct.

Dose: You said when (at night) but you didn't mention the exact dose.

multivitamin/vitamin C

You said "regular multivitamin/vitamin C", but again I have no idea on supplements, and there are so many brands out there. Any guidance?


And again whats the total time I should be using the supplements? 4months and stop, or keep on going undefinitely until I see results?
And what happens when you stop taking the supplements? You'll have those problems again, or the organism learns to balance/create the required amount of stuff lacking now for itself or something?

Finally: I would need a quick, couple lines on what those 5 supplements are positive for, what they are doing. Like real quick description. It's for my mom, cos I told her: "I have to buy all of this." But I need to be able to explain her what they are doing so she can understand it. She says it's too much stuff to take at once, and what if some of those aren't compatible with each other, side effects, what if they are not approved by the (the FDA equivalent here in Spain I guess).. and stuff like that. She said she saw a magnesium suplement on the local pharmacy and she will ask about it. I told her that most magnesium suplements are of low quality and that this one is really good. She said she will ask about "Doctor's Best" brand on the pharmacy, I told her (afaik) that brand is from USA and they don't sell here, and the person on the pharmacy will not even know it. She just doesn't trust it I think because it's shipped over the internet.

I don't want to mention anything about cumming too quick. Too embarrassing lol.

This is going to be a pretty expensive investment because of shippings + i'll buy enough of each supplements for at least 4 months, but I hope it pays off and everything gets better. There are other stuff besides the main reason (PE) that I want to improve, like damn shakky legs, difficulties to sleep etc.

I see someone in the thread mentioned Deferol as a possible solution. Now I looked up that product and one of the main ingredients is Griffonia seed extract, which is 5-htp. Now I've tried that and it works well for me. And as I understand it acts similarly to a SSRI only without the side effects.

So you might want to try 5-htp or Tryptophan, which acts in a similar fashion, before you go to a more serious option like surgery.

Btw, I want to mention here again that the surgery is not only to try to fix my PE. I do it because it's short and it will eventually tear during sex, and you don't want that. Also it's fucking annoying and sex is simply not complete. I want to be careless and having on my mind "this is tense and may tear if I pound her too hard" it's annoying.

Also, whats the difference between taking 5-htp and Tryptophan? When I search for 5-htp on stores, Tryptophan stuff always pops up aswell. Example:

I searched for 5-htp here, and "L-Tryptohpan" apparead on related:

5-htp - VitaViva
L-Tryptophan - VitaViva

 

[naturesucks]

Up

I need wheelbite's aproval to know if those are the best supplements. He hasn't logged in for a week :/
Anyone who is really knowledgeable about this can recommend me the supps aswell

Cheers

 

[Kafka56]

Yo

Yo

Up

I need wheelbite's aproval to know if those are the best supplements. He hasn't logged in for a week :/
Anyone who is really knowledgeable about this can recommend me the supps aswell

Cheers

Hey man I have been lingering around these forums for a long time but haven't decided to even make an account until I basically read through EVERY single page on your post because I had been having the same exact problems, including the frenulum breve. I'm 18 yrs old but not too interested in any kind of expansive, Napoleonic-style conquering of women like you seem to be going for; I just wanted to please my girlfriend. I basically got a full circumcision, including complete removal of the frenulum. It sucked for the first month or two and I actually became super sensitive but after that a miracle happened: no more PE. I am by no means advocating circumcision but my situation was so desperate that I just HAD to do it. Obviously sometimes I still get overexcited but the control is INSANELY improved. Yes, some of the pleasure is gone, but I hated that over-intensity anyway, since losing control meant depression for me, not ecstasy. I will also look into these supplements like magenesium, etc. In fact, I have ALL the symptoms of magnesium deficiency, including all those sleep problems. Don't worry dude, you'll get this sh*t fixed. I'm not sure it matters about what TYPE of supplement you get; the fish oils and the magnesium pills surely all contain the same essential product.

Another thing: let's be serious, you are generalizing women pretty harsh. Yes, they all want a solid fuck. Yes, just oral / fingers isn't enough. But I've been with my GF for a year now and we've tried everything: vibrators, strap-ons, those weird ass double-penetration simulators where you strap a second dick onto yourself and it's like she's getting double teamed, etc.. lmao. My GF is super excited to try all this different kind of sh*t and we have mad fun with it... it never gets boring.

Anyway, I'm way off topic here. I look forward to hearing about the results of your surgery and all the rest of it.

PS. Btw have you tried Viagra? I can usually stay 100% hard even after coming with that.

 

[spanky]

Hey Kafka56, welcome to the gym.

Wanted to ask you something. How bad was your frenulum breve? Could you pull your foreskin all the way back before? And If so, was it so short as to pull your glans backwards if you just left it there with your foreskin back?

I ask because I'm uncut and I considered before that I might have this a bit. My frenulum used to be insanely sensitive, and obviously on the first time you pop your dick in there it if she's not soaking wet, it pulls back real tight and that would send my arousal through the roof.

I don't really know why, perhaps from edging and PFM control, but it's nothing like that sensitive any more. And as I say, that's kinda why I'm asking 'cause I wanted to compare. I've been trying to stretch it a little of late too, as I understand it's possible to make a difference in a month or two.

 

[kingpole]

Hi there. Im 21, and I cum fast a fuck. As far as I can remember, I always came really fast.

To have an idea of what im talking about, i'll try to describe it step by step:

1) Put on some porn
2) We start counting here, clock at 0:00 till around 1:30 where im hard
3) Now, im hard enough to be able to masturbate, so I start stroking, lets say, for 10, 20, 30 seconds
4) We are now around 1:50-2:00, where I guarantee I already had to stop any stimulation to avoid cumming. I have to STOP. Any contact with my penis when I feel like im about to cum would in fact make me start ejaculating, including leaving your hand there without stroking. Same goes for the PC muscle. I have to keep it relaxed. If I try to contract it, or do anything fancy with it, what I would do is start ejaculating.
5) I stop all stimulation for about 20 seconds, 30. So we are now at around 2:30. Cock went now semi-erect
6) I start stroking again, for lets say, 10, 20, 30 seconds. So we are at around 2:50
7) I feel like im cumming so I have to stop any stimulation.

Notice the loop?

After years and years of trying to do something with it, nothing worked. I can't get past that loop. I can't last longer than that before feeling that really pleasing feeling on the prostate zone that forces you to flex your PC muscle because the pleasure is not bearable anymore, and if you flex it, you cum. If I stop stimulation, as you can see, nothing changes, since soon (10 or 20 seconds) i'll be on that same point of "im about to cum" again, so sex is unviable, since just by having my cock inside a girls pussy would be enough to make me cum when I reach that point. When I say I have to stop ALL stimulation I mean ALL of it, as I said, including not leaving your hand there. The constant contact with the vaginal walls, temperature, the little vaginal contractions, vaginal juices... all of that is enough stimulation to make me cum, so I can't fuck. Yeah, I can't have sex.

Let me tell you, sometimes i've managed to cum semi erect. More flacid than erect. See point 5. When I get there and I stop, rest for around 30 seconds where it goes semi erect, then continue, I sometimes managed to cum after 20 or 30 seconds when I started to jerk off again. The shaft wasn't even able to get erect on that little time but I felt like fucking cumming again.

I also managed to stop ejaculation by flexing my PC muscle at the right time, but this doesn't help much. This would be helpful for normal people who feel like cuming every 4, 5 or 6 minutes. This is definitely not useable if you feel like cuming practically constantly. In fact it doesn't work if you don't stop all stimulation as well when you do the flexing. Example: Im hard as fuck reaching point 5, where I have to stop all stimulation. I decide to flex it before ejaculating, and if I don't get my hand out of my dick, I would cum anyway, sometimes managing a retrograde ejaculation, where I keep flexing hard as fuck while I feel the little contractions that you do in regular ejaculation, but without ejaculating. This is a pretty retarded thing to do, since you lose your bonner anyway.

Sometimes i've been able to do this like 3 or 4 times in a row. I don't know if this constitutes as being multiorgasmic, but as I said, it's pretty retarded since in real life situation: With a girl, having sex, you would FAIL.

As I said, the thing is, when I do that flexing right at the point of no return and I get a retro-ejaculation, feels like an orgasm, not as awesomely good as just letting yourself go and having a proper orgasm with ejaculation tho. Anyway, so as I said after the retro-ejaculation thing, your bonner fades a lot. So you are with a semi-boner. Definitely you don't feel as if you had a normal orgasm with ejaculation, you still feel like you didn't lost all your hornyness so to speak, but your penis is semi-erect and, if you are not pretty big (like me) it's pretty un-useable. What happens if I continue jerking off at this point is the following: If I don't rest like 30 or 40 seconds, and I inmediately after the retro-orgasm continue jerking off with the semi-boner state, I would cum pretty much inmediately, because my cock is still somehow in orgasm state, having those little involuntary PC muscle spasms that you get after ejaculating. So what I do is stopping for 30 or 40 seconds till this tingling sensation fades a bit. Then, I continue jerking off in semi-erect status, and im able to make it a bit harder again and reach another retro-orgasm if I decide to do a PC flex again when im about to cum. This takes like 40 or 50 seconds, not sure. If I flex again when im about to cum, same will happen, but this time, the semi-bonner will be much poorer, and it will take a bit longer (not too much tho) to be able to retro-ejaculate again. As I said I managed to have like 4 or 5 orgasms like this in the shower in no less than 5 minutes.

Again, this is simply not useable during sex. It's a waste of time. During sex you wouldn't be able to stop every fucking 20 or 30 seconds for half a minute, because the girl would simply get pissed off at you (that is if you didn't came when you tried to flex the PC muscle and stop the ejaculation inside her vagina, and I guarantee you I would came). And it doesn't even feel that good. I would prefeer to be able to have my cock fully erect and be able to stroke it as much as I want for at least 5 fucking minutes. This translates as being sexually functional, in other words being able to at least fuck a girl for 5 minutes. Im not.

Okay lets get straight to the point: I cum really fast. Things i've tried:

-I've tried Kegel routines, reverse Kegels, superKegels, etc. Never worked. My PC muscle is strong enough to be flexed for a minute straight if I tried.

-Trying to fuck/masturbate with your PC muscle totally relaxed: Doesn't work. The sensation of "omfg, im about to cum" will be there, and when it's there, i'll fucking flex it involuntarily if I don't stop all stimulation because the pleasure is way too much.

-Edging. I've been doing this forever. Always trying to spend at least 30 minutes in a fap session, never cum too fast. But again, read the 7 steps I described. Im still at that 30-50 second margin loop, so no progress done.

So now I ask: What is there for me left to try?

You know what. God or whoever that cunt up there is has a sense of humor. So he gives me the ability to attract girls easily. Tick there. He gives me the ability to bring these girls to bed. Tick there. He gives me a 5.9 inch penis that is 3.9 flacid (so be sure to not get your pants down unless you at least have a semiboner), with premature ejaculation to boot. FML

The last thing I can think about that has something to do with my premature ejaculation is my frenulum being short. My penis is uncut, so I have the foresking intact. I can get my foreskin all the way back down flacid, but when its fully erect, I can't without the frenulum being really tight. I can pull the foreskin back down the glans if im holding it with my hand and putting presure down, but since at this point the frenulum is really tight, if I stop holding it with my hand the foreskin go up and cover at least half the gland. This, besides being annoying as fuck and having the risk of tearing your frenulum, makes for a less aesthetically pleasing cock.
Another thing I hate about my cock is my curvature. It's curved like 40 degrees or so to the left, which also kills the aesthetics of your cock and makes it look smaller. Also it's pretty anoying because the girl wouldn't be able to blowjob you nohands, since she would always need to hold it with a hand to avoid it falling down to the left.
The way the curvature is done and the way the frenulum curves aswell makes me think that the curvature is a result of having a short frenulum and during development the shaft curved.
Anyway, the main problem is not being able to fuck, and here is some medical research that link frenulum breve with premature ejaculation:


My last resort is getting a frenulum surgery. I have to do this anyway since I fear its going to get teared since its a bit short. As I said, I can get the foreskin all the way back, but at this point is already tense and I get that sort of skin ring at the bottom of my glands (get the idea right, it's not a phimotic ring case, is just that remaning skin gets stuck there because I can retract it fully due the frenulum being too short). I hope that I get rid of some sensitivity aswell since i obviously have way too much. I've also heard people talking about getting a little bonus in lenght, so I guess nothing bad can come out of it.

The only thing that scares me about the surgery is the unaesthetic marks/bumps that may result from it. I've heard people talking about some disgusting bump in the frenulum area after the surgery. Anyone got the surgery done and can comment on results?
What method did the surgeon use? Afaik there are 3: scalp, electric-scalp and laser. Whats the best one? (whats the one that leaves less marks). Can't find much information on this out there.

Also something very interesting i've found is this method:

Tying Up the Frenulum

The pictures are impressive. I can't see the frenulum anymore, and I can't see any ugly bump or scar, looks great.
The problem is I've *never* heard anyone talking about that method, and theres no fucking way im doing it to myself, even if its "simple". Do you think urologist are aware of this method? If so, why the hell aren't they applying this by default to everyone? For me aesthetics are as important as functionability. It pisses me off a lot that it seems that unless you aren't a porn actor or something it doesn't matter if they leave you an ugly bump or scars and you aren't allowed to complain. I want my penis looking as good as possible, fuck. Im sure everyone with a penis wants that.

Im going to an urologist soon. I've never been to one. I will tell him (or her, I hope. Why the fuck there aren't hot girls as urologists) about my frenulum problem, then I'll tell him I cum really fast, if both problems are linked and so on. Embarrasing as fuck but I can't take it anymore. I hope something can be done about it, otherwise im not sure what im going to do. A life without being able to please a girl is not a life, but a cognitive hell of frustration.
Im young and im not interested in relationships. Im interested in having sex with hot girls. I can't do this and feels really bad. Feels even worse knowing that your only problem is that, because you can attract girls easily, but can't deliver good sex.

PS: Im really interested in Penis Enlargement in general. Im wanting to start exercising so I recently started with the newbie routine off Thundersplace. I do them at the shower with really hot water to warm up. It's basically 5 minutes of warm up, 10 minutes of stretching, 10 minutes of jelqing, warm up again. The problem is I can't be on the shower for 20 minutes because my parents would think im retarded, so I stretch and do the jelqings when im here on the computer. Is there any problem with this? Another problem I have is that when stretching, it's really difficult for me to hold the penis in order to make a proper stretch. I think its all the frenulum's fault. It's REALLY annoying because since it's tight it can hurt and the foreskin gets on the way. What I do to stretch is, when totally flacid, I retract the foresking all the way down, put the "OK" grip with my fingers under right under the glands and stretch the fuck out of it. Is this correct? The most effective stretch I can do is if I pull down or front. If I pull up i can't hold it for 30 seconds, my fingers slide throught the gland.
While jeling I have a similar problem. Due my curvature and short frenulum the foreskin gets stuck under the gland when im making presure from the base till the top and it hurts. Can you grow the same if you only use the "C" finger position? With that grip I have no problem making hard presure and doing the full motion.
Also, what intensitiy do you have to apply to your stretching/jelqing? I've heard specially when stretching you have to pull real hard. It has to hurt so the ligaments break in order to grow. Is this right?

I guess all information is helpful so, my diet: Is basically a mediterranean diet. Im a rather skinny guy but im pretty lean. The food I eat is all good stuff my mom cooks. I never eat fast food. I don't smoke and I don't drink alcohol. I lift some weights (btw, can you do your enlargement exercises just after lifting weights? as I said I like to do em in the shower after lifting. Any conflict with this?). Post workout I usually dinner + a banana.

PS2: I've read so many people here that sound really wise when it comes to premature ejaculation and penis-related stuff in general at a chemical level, so i have to mention that I grow a pretty ridiculous amount of leg and arm hair. More than my father and im only 21. Can this be related to anything? Im also losing hair on my head. I mean, im NOT going bald, but I have a little widow peak (a bit weird, the left side is deeper than the right side), not noticeable due my haircut, but its there. I visited a dermatologist and said it was normal, that some people have a widow peak naturally but that doesn't mean you are going bald anytime soon. My dad is bald but hes near 60, but he had hair at 35 so I shouldn't be too worried I guess until I start getting old as fuck. All family members mom-related have hair (even my grandfather) so I hope I got their genes hair-related.
The dermatologist gave me a Minoxidil Lacovin 2% and some shampoo that I still haven't tried, because I wanted more information before I put anything on my hair. Anyone has any experiences with Minoxidil Lacovin 2%?

Well thats all for now. Sorry for the massive rant but im really pissed. We'll see how it goes when I visit the urologist and stuff. I guess he maybe will mention anti-depressants to try to last longer. That is the last thing I would resort to, but well, theres nothing much to do if after the frenulum surgery im still cuming as fast. The thought of depending on pills the rest of your life in order to have sex is pretty shitty. Side-effects also bother me. I've heard they can be really expensive aswell. Here in the country where I live, there used to be this pill named "Priligy" (not sure if someone is familiar with it), it got pretty hyped here as "a cure for premature ejaculation", later proved to be pretty meh when it comes to results, and side effects included pretty serious stuff like fainting (I guess that would be a rare case but still). I think it basically was dapoxetina and who the fuck knows what else (I guess you can find it in Google). You'll need the doc permision to be able to buy it, and it's fucking 34€/box, 3 FUCKING PILLS PER BOX! They want to get rich out of fucking premature ejaculators. It's crazy. We'll I don't know what they are prescribing nowadays to fight premature ejaculation, let's wait and see what the urologist offers for a solution.

Btw, I once readed some guy who bought some Kamagra (apparently a cheaper Viagra) just to try out of disspair. Popped a pill of that and besides lasting a bit longer, he was hard as fuck for hours. Even if you ejaculated after one minute, you would go on continuing. Anyone has any information on that one? I think it would be kinda sad relying on Viagra-ish pills at 21, but what the fuck. If anything else works, I'll end up giving a try to anything.

I'll keep you guys updated if anyone cares when I visit the urologist. Thanks for any help/advice.

First of all God is not a cunt, So someone who knows God, speaks to God and hears God is going to help you out. So then when things improve for you down there you will Give God the credit. Because you will be so fricken happy.

Are you ready????? Here goes your personal edging program.

Your sessions will be encapsulated in a couple of hours 2-3 times per week.

First load: masturbate ejaculate and try to enjoy it as much as possible.
Let yourself recover masturbate again.
Second load: You will notice the second session is longer than the first.
Third session: After you have done two quickies you are now going to edge. Your goal is to not ejaculate for at least 4 minutes. With progress these sessions will begiong to last longer.

I also reccomnend practiceing reverse kegels.

PM me if you want more dialogue.

Rome was not built in a day.