Is anyone else worried? (Covid Vaccine)

[Jay1983]

Hey. I’m tired of this fucking sh*t. Take the shot so I can get rid of this fucking mask. Got it! Good! Jesus.

The eye fucking I give the ladies while wearing a mask is so fucking seductive.

When I wink, I know they smile. Lol!

 

[Fizzby2233]

I just went to the home page of Rational Ground and there is a picture of Leonardo dicapria as Gatsby with something like "remember the people who ordered the shut down have not missed a paycheck" then the article I looked at was "the path forward" this and other articles are opinion pieces. This particular article was saying many of the thing I have heard stated on this thread so I could see it has appeal and a political bent. Open schools all work considered essential stratify the cases by age recognize natural herd immunity. The article makes these statements as if grounded in science yet it an editorial or opinion piece. The last on keep covid death separate from "with covid" here is the problem with that. Take the young congressman that died. He had no pre existing conditions his doctors have stated that. He did not go to the hospital for a heart attack he went for covid. He was put on a ventilator which is a harsh process and very unpleasant with long lasting effect. He then had a cardiac event completely and total attach to his primary diagnosis or basically what he was admitted for covid. When he died the data will show his reason for admission was covid. People with covid are dying with pneumonia stroke heart disease pulmonary failure kidney failure directly because they contracted covid. It is not accurate to isolate the two. Very much like Aids. People die of cancer lymphoma toxoplasmosis pneumonia because they have Aids. They die of opportunistic infections because their immune system has been diminished to the point that even things we normally fight of can end them. The congressman did not just go from no heart condition to dead without the intervening cause of covids thrombolic action.

 

[Fizzby2233]

Hey. I’m tired of this fucking sh*t. Take the shot so I can get rid of this fucking mask. Got it! Good! Jesus.

I do believe that is the shortest route to life as a party again.

 

[Jay1983]

I do believe that is the shortest route to life as a party again.

I went to an orgy the other week. We were all wearing nothing.... but masks.

 

[BigO]

We need to open every single business, unless the government is willing to reimburse every worker and every business owner an equal amount of money they would be making, they are denying people their right to earn a living wage.

We can debate all day about right and wrong but this will end in bloodshed if people continue to be denied their right to earn their money.

If someone feels unsafe when businesses open, its their right to stay inside or where a mask.

No one has the right to tell me to stay inside, no one has the right to tell me to where a mask, if that upsets someone I have the right not to give a damn and I just don't care how they feel about it.

 

[not2big]

Is your sister-in-law still here? I hope so. Any death is a tragedy and I am not saying that people aren't dying from the virus. I am guessing these individuals had underling issues that contributed to their deaths. I am no medical professional, but if those with underling issues are more atrisks. Maybe the long term living facility should have done better research on their residents. Seems like there is negligence on the facilities part more than then anyone else. The link

it was in March before it was known that masks were an effective way to prevent the transmission of Covid. I agree that they were most likely suffering with underlying issues, but under normal conditions only about 4 residents a year die from their issues.

 

[Johnny D]

I just went to the home page of Rational Ground and there is a picture of Leonardo dicapria as Gatsby with something like "remember the people who ordered the shut down have not missed a paycheck" then the article I looked at was "the path forward" this and other articles are opinion pieces. This particular article was saying many of the thing I have heard stated on this thread so I could see it has appeal and a political bent. Open schools all work considered essential stratify the cases by age recognize natural herd immunity. The article makes these statements as if grounded in science yet it an editorial or opinion piece. The last on keep covid death separate from "with covid" here is the problem with that. Take the young congressman that died. He had no pre existing conditions his doctors have stated that. He did not go to the hospital for a heart attack he went for covid. He was put on a ventilator which is a harsh process and very unpleasant with long lasting effect. He then had a cardiac event completely and total attach to his primary diagnosis or basically what he was admitted for covid. When he died the data will show his reason for admission was covid. People with covid are dying with pneumonia stroke heart disease pulmonary failure kidney failure directly because they contracted covid. It is not accurate to isolate the two. Very much like Aids. People die of cancer lymphoma toxoplasmosis pneumonia because they have Aids. They die of opportunistic infections because their immune system has been diminished to the point that even things we normally fight of can end them. The congressman did not just go from no heart condition to dead without the intervening cause of covids thrombolic action.

Opinion pieces that are rooted in data. If you're waiting for "the authorities" to publish that information, you'll be waiting for a long time. Most of them won't go against the narrative. But the data is available and Rational Ground even makes the raw data that they're using available to anyone who wants to parse it for themselves. I know you take issue with some of their Twitter handles (argumentum ad hominem) but where do you dispute their analysis?
- The Great Barrington Declaration has been virtually ignored. Do you reject its authors’ credentials too?
--The WHO mysteriously and quietly just removed natural immunity from their web site, essentially saying now that the only way to achieve immunity is through vaccination.
--The CDC is pushing for PCR testing when it's scientific fact that it's not meant to detect infections and has an abysmally high false positive rate
--The JAMA and others are refusing to publish peer-reviewed papers that go against the narrative because of how they "might be interpreted"
Just because the information isn't coming from one of your beloved leaders doesn't mean the data is false.

BTW... People are admitted to the hospital frequently for one thing and then a procedure they're having for it causes heart failure. The cause of death isn't the thing they were admitted for. People are admitted for, say, trauma due to an auto accident and then contract an infection that kills them. They didn't die from the auto accident.

 

[Fizzby2233]

Opinion pieces that are rooted in data. If you're waiting for "the authorities" to publish that information, you'll be waiting for a long time. Most of them won't go against the narrative. But the data is available and Rational Ground even makes the raw data that they're using available to anyone who wants to parse it for themselves. I know you take issue with some of their Twitter handles (argumentum ad hominem) but where do you dispute their analysis?
- The Great Barrington Declaration has been virtually ignored. Do you reject its authors’ credentials too?
--The WHO mysteriously and quietly just removed natural immunity from their web site, essentially saying now that the only way to achieve immunity is through vaccination.
--The CDC is pushing for PCR testing when it's scientific fact that it's not meant to detect infections and has an abysmally high false positive rate
--The JAMA and others are refusing to publish peer-reviewed papers that go against the narrative because of how they "might be interpreted"
Just because the information isn't coming from one of your beloved leaders doesn't mean the data is false.

BTW... People are admitted to the hospital frequently for one thing and then a procedure they're having for it causes heart failure. The cause of death isn't the thing they were admitted for. People are admitted for, say, trauma due to an auto accident and then contract an infection that kills them. They didn't die from the auto accident.

Hey Johnny. You are spot on as far a sometime being admitted for one thing and dying of another. There are hospital acquired infections sepsis and one set of numbers we collect is called medical misadventures which basically is where we categorize the different mistakes a hospital can make. But when you see the overwhelming data indicating that people with no preexisting conditions come in and because of covid develop blood clots that go to heart lungs kidneys or brain the you can state there is a relationship. That is why part of the treatment now is blood thinners. Even Trump was given blood thinners to prevent any thrombolic event. After covid patient dying rapidly from cytokine storms. Where the body ramps up so strongly to fight the virus that it attack everything and you spiral into organ failure and sepsis. We have also collected data on people were asymptomatic but said they were having some brain fog or confusion. After CAT scan it is shown hundred of micro thrombolic bits of damage. Not enough forva stroke but enough mess with the wiring of clear thought. We believe that the brain is plastic enough to rewire in time. We will see. But these are all associated with having covid and can not be separated out so we can so covid is more like a flu. People who are in the hospital for flu don't generally stroke out code or require double lung transplants. Since the flu is truly a respiratory illness general complication are pneumonia or cytokine storm. Covid is really a clotting (thrombolic) disease with a strong respiratory component. The clotting part speaks why young men who have had covid with mild or no symptoms upon MRI were seen to have 10, 15 up to 20 percent diminished lung capacity. They didn't even realize that was the case. Why because they are still young take 20 percent lung capacity from someone who is 80 you are going to start down a dark road. Insurance companies do not look at flu as a preexisting condition but because of what covid can do to you it having had it will be a preexisting condition to be listed. Much the same as if you have ever been on a ventilator that becomes a risk factor for any future surgeries. Nothing happens in isolation or with connecting factors. Cheers.

 

[Fizzby2233]

Should say without connecting factors. Sorry.

 

[Fizzby2233]

Medical articles on efficacy of wearing masks. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32473312 https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/debunked-myths-about-face-masks There is also a great a great article published by the University of California San Francisco. "Still Confused About Masks? Here's the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus" this can be googled. Cheers.

 

[Fizzby2233]

Herd Immunity links
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...th/herd-immunity-and-Coronavirus/art-20486808
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jams/fullarticle/2772167
http://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19

 

[Pegasus]

So my understanding of herd immunity is for it to work a large % of the population need to be immune .

I understand there are 3 ways this is achieved natural immunity , vaccine and haveing had the illness . My understanding is that the % of people with natural immunity is low and that a low % of people have had covid . Thus the need for vaccine . Or is the suggestion to let covid continue until resistance builds ? Or am I missing something?

 

[Fizzby2233]

So my understanding of herd immunity is for it to work a large % of the population need to be immune .

I understand there are 3 ways this is achieved natural immunity , vaccine and haveing had the illness . My understanding is that the % of people with natural immunity is low and that a low % of people have had covid . Thus the need for vaccine . Or is the suggestion to let covid continue until resistance builds ? Or am I missing something?

No you are spot on. Natural immunity can happen over a number of years and with many deaths also the chance of virus mutation. The vaccine comes in to play by basically accelerating herd immunity. The more people that are vaccinated the fewer host the virus can find so you basically starve it to death. The same the can happen by just letting it run rampant without try to stop it. Yes at some point you get herd immunity because the virus can't find a host. But with out the vaccine it grinds on the population for so much longer and takes so much higher a death toll. The death toll in Sweden is so eye open by letting run it course that Sweden done a 180. The vaccine will get us there faster without kill grandma and help us get back to a more normal life. If that is what people want a vaccinated public gets us there quickest with the added benefit that you know you didn't knock off your neighbor.

 

[Pegasus]

No you are spot on. Natural immunity can happen over a number of years and with many deaths also the chance of virus mutation. The vaccine comes in to play by basically accelerating herd immunity. The more people that are vaccinated the fewer host the virus can find so you basically starve it to death. The same the can happen by just letting it run rampant without try to stop it. Yes at some point you get herd immunity because the virus can't find a host. But with out the vaccine it grinds on the population for so much longer and takes so much higher a death toll. The death toll in Sweden is so eye open by letting run it course that Sweden done a 180. The vaccine will get us there faster without kill grandma and help us get back to a more normal life. If that is what people want a vaccinated public gets us there quickest with the added benefit that you know you didn't knock off your neighbor.

Yes this is my understanding .

 

[Johnny D]

Hey Johnny. You are spot on as far a sometime being admitted for one thing and dying of another. There are hospital acquired infections sepsis and one set of numbers we collect is called medical misadventures which basically is where we categorize the different mistakes a hospital can make. But when you see the overwhelming data indicating that people with no preexisting conditions come in and because of covid develop blood clots that go to heart lungs kidneys or brain the you can state there is a relationship. That is why part of the treatment now is blood thinners. Even Trump was given blood thinners to prevent any thrombolic event. After covid patient dying rapidly from cytokine storms. Where the body ramps up so strongly to fight the virus that it attack everything and you spiral into organ failure and sepsis. We have also collected data on people were asymptomatic but said they were having some brain fog or confusion. After CAT scan it is shown hundred of micro thrombolic bits of damage. Not enough forva stroke but enough mess with the wiring of clear thought. We believe that the brain is plastic enough to rewire in time. We will see. But these are all associated with having covid and can not be separated out so we can so covid is more like a flu. People who are in the hospital for flu don't generally stroke out code or require double lung transplants. Since the flu is truly a respiratory illness general complication are pneumonia or cytokine storm. Covid is really a clotting (thrombolic) disease with a strong respiratory component. The clotting part speaks why young men who have had covid with mild or no symptoms upon MRI were seen to have 10, 15 up to 20 percent diminished lung capacity. They didn't even realize that was the case. Why because they are still young take 20 percent lung capacity from someone who is 80 you are going to start down a dark road. Insurance companies do not look at flu as a preexisting condition but because of what covid can do to you it having had it will be a preexisting condition to be listed. Much the same as if you have ever been on a ventilator that becomes a risk factor for any future surgeries. Nothing happens in isolation or with connecting factors. Cheers.

Good follow up! Thanks for this.

But the other option for the Letlow case - and possibly more likely scenario given the lack of underlying conditions - is the use of Remdisivir for treatment, is it not? Isn't it known to significantly lower blood pressure and cause arrythmia? If I go in for an infection and am killed by penicillin, did I die of an infection?

 

[Johnny D]

Herd Immunity links
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...th/herd-immunity-and-Coronavirus/art-20486808
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jams/fullarticle/2772167
http://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19

Good to see that the WHO has changed the answer back to include immunity from infection.
BTW... I'm not arguing that our goal should be naturally acquired herd immunity. I'm simply saying that I am personally very reluctant - resistant, perhaps - to being injected with a vaccine that hasn't been proven over time to have no significant adverse consequences.

 

[Johnny D]

Medical articles on efficacy of wearing masks. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32473312 https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem....ing-of-health/debunked-myths-about-face-masks There is also a great a great article published by the University of California San Francisco. "Still Confused About Masks? Here's the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus" this can be googled. Cheers.

Yet the data shows that there is no correlation between mask compliance and case counts. How can we simply ignore the data and evidence?

 

[BigO]

Good to see that the WHO has changed the answer back to include immunity from infection.
BTW... I'm not arguing that our goal should be naturally acquired herd immunity. I'm simply saying that I am personally very reluctant - resistant, perhaps - to being injected with a vaccine that hasn't been proven over time to have no significant adverse consequences.

Its messed up a lot of people already

 

[Fizzby2233]

Good follow up! Thanks for this.

But the other option for the Letlow case - and possibly more likely scenario given the lack of underlying conditions - is the use of Remdisivir for treatment, is it not? Isn't it known to significantly lower blood pressure and cause arrythmia? If I go in for an infection and am killed by penicillin, did I die of an infection?

I do understand what you are saying but the point can be made that if he was given Remdisvir he was administered that drug because he had covid. He would not be given that for a flu or broken leg. Everything still goes back to covid. My father died of kidney failure but the cause of death was listed as sepsis. He was admitted to hospital a number of times for renal failure and if he had passed during any of those visits his death would have been listed as cause of admission renal failure. But later because his kidneys were failing he went into a septic state and was admitted for sepsis so cause of death sepsis. Of course the renal failure was part of the documentation but he got sepsis because he had renal failure. What ever caused Luke's cardiac incident and evidence could point to either treatment or the scientifically proven trombolic component of covid. Both of those were a direct result of covid. It is called a precipitating event. This happens and because this happens these other things happen. You can not separate the precipitating event out of the timeline. Well at least not in the scientific and medical community in the lay arena of popular thought anything can be postulated.

 

[Johnny D]

I do understand what you are saying but the point can be made that if he was given Remdisvir he was administered that drug because he had covid. He would not be given that for a flu or broken leg. Everything still goes back to covid. My father died of kidney failure but the cause of death was listed as sepsis. He was admitted to hospital a number of times for renal failure and if he had passed during any of those visits his death would have been listed as cause of admission renal failure. But later because his kidneys were failing he went into a septic state and was admitted for sepsis so cause of death sepsis. Of course the renal failure was part of the documentation but he got sepsis because he had renal failure. What ever caused Luke's cardiac incident and evidence could point to either treatment or the scientifically proven trombolic component of covid. Both of those were a direct result of covid. It is called a precipitating event. This happens and because this happens these other things happen. You can not separate the precipitating event out of the timeline. Well at least not in the scientific and medical community in the lay arena of popular thought anything can be postulated.

Can't argue with that logic.
BTW... I'm appreciating your more cogent and thoughtful responses of late.
(Though I still want to see your data to support the assertion that the pandemic will continue unless 75% of the population is vaccinated. Just sayin...)