I guess this is my sequel thread to being 20 and never being in a relationship

[ryansambas]

I thought I would post in here rather than create a new thread since it's basically a continuation of how I feel. Still haven't had sex and I'm 21 in less than two months! I'm embarrassed because I can't even use the excuse of saving myself for the right person because that would be a load of bullshit lol.

Anyway it has all dawned on me more in the past few days then probably ever. I'm in the UK at the moment visiting where I used to live (I live in Australia) and I thought this would be the time to 'break my seal' and have a few sexual encounters but it is me we are talking about and of course that hasn't happened. It has been a sh*t visit and compared to Australia this place has been pretty depressing to me, my friends here have been boring as fuck so I haven't even went out with them. Only went out with one mate who doesn't even live in the same area anymore, talked to a few girls along a pub crawl but none at the club we ended up at and then i was let out of the club by a bouncer and I still don't know why, no big loss. There didn't seem to be a lot of girls and it wasn't even that good a place. Now here comes my controversial views, I feel in the UK it is probably easier to have sex casually and there is probably more quality to choose from in that route rather than a serious relationship in comparison to Australia just because of the population size and I believe the quality in Australia lies within relationships but I think my main problems over the years has been deciding which route to take and also because I have low confidence and always make excuses as to why a girl wouldn't have sex with me/go out with me. So I'm pretty annoyed because I feel I've wasted 3-4 years of potential experiences and I'm starting very late and just like that, it makes me feel a bit sad as well. I think I'd prefer to just have sex casually which obviously suits the UK but I can't help that now as I leave in a week

I don't really want a relationship as I do appreciate my freedom plus I've only asked two girls out and they both have boyfriends now with one being a rich 30 year old (She's 20) and one being I think the opposite in a short (not being mean, stating the truth), skinny and probably poor 20ish year old so I'm the most applicable out of the three (without being biased, others would agree) yet I'm not a choice for them for some reason, it's not really the relationship part either. It's all of the games and pre-relationship stuff I can't be bothered with but at the same time I don't want to be in a relationship just for consistent sex, I want to be in a relationship because I have feelings for the person.

I still live at home so that is my only valid excuse (probably the main reason why I haven't tried to have sex with any girls haha) as to why I haven't got laid but I should try and build up some re-pour lol but yeah I'm feeling very unfulfilled as a result, doesn't help when I think about other people and my mates etc who have been much more successful than me. I don't even look bad (I probably look better than I think), I've seen people worse looking than me be far more successful.

But yeah that's pretty much the scoop

 

[Qarzan]

Hey Ryan, good to see you're updating us!

I recently had a short exchange with one of my friends about love, sex, and relationships. For me, and also for him, love and sex go together. You can have one without the other, like love without sex, which is apparent in strong friendships, family relationships, etc. Then you can have sex without love, like one night stands and FWB. What we determined is that sex without love is very unsatisfying, at least for us.

So, in that way, I decided to work on the love part; I worked on connecting with people. I worked on being a better listener, making friends, keeping my mind in the present, and basically having a lot of fun! What I found is that, once you make a strong emotional connection to someone, sex just naturally happens.

That is my advice to you. Don't focus on getting laid. Focus on being emotionally available, practice being emotionally vulnerable, make strong emotional bonds and connections. You will make lots of good friends, you'll have fun every time you go out, and then BAM! When you're not expecting it, it'll just happen. It'll feel natural, unforced, beautiful, and wonderful. Because, after all, it sounds like that's what you're after: sex with feelings. And it should be what you're after, because, like Outkast said, "Sex is always better when there's feelings involved."

Doesn't even have to be a relationship, either. I've developed a strong emotional bond with a woman before, and then we only spent one night together. BUT, first work on your ability to connect. Sex is a byproduct of this.

 

[ThirdArm]

Hey Ryan,

For what it's worth, I'm a bit older than you and in the same situation - if not perhaps a little further behind. But the details aren't important. Yes, it does hurt to look into the past ruminate over mistakes and possibilities.

One thing that has helped me greatly is a different mindset about my past mistakes. I try to think of all of my past mistakes as the potential catalyst for a major self-improvement - but only if I actively choose to pioneer that change. It sounds to me like you're in the ideal place in your life for a true turnaround. What do all underdogs have in common? An initial struggle. A time when you lacked clarity, but wanted nothing more than to improve. Instead of looking back with regret, look forward with conviction knowing that you can use your disappointment to motivate and propel your own improvement. The past is all behind you now. Learn from it, but don't let it hold you back. If you love life was mediocre you would likely never have found yourself at this crossroads - this is an opportunity for a complete turnaround.

I remember back about 5 or 6 months ago, I hit a personal rock bottom. It led to some very serious and honest self-evaluation. It was painful, not pretty, but very productive. I shattered many of my false premises about relationships, about women and about myself (Interestingly, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead played a role here). The path forward has not been linear, but it has mostly been upwards.

The best advice I can give you, from years of doing the wrong things, is to create a more confident mindset by giving yourself legitimate reasons to be confident. You seem like an over-analyzer, and your signature with specific penile details supports that suspicion. You like facts. That's why you look at the logistics of these other two men and wonder how seemingly inferior men have women. It doesn't seem to make sense to you. If the girls are in fact game-players, then pass. How well did you know these girls, anyway? So two girls picked different guys and you think you're a better catch. That happens all the time. Don't waste your time on it.

I feel compelled to suggest to you a book that another PE'er suggested to me. It's called Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson. Good read - maybe it will be useful to you.

Let's pull ourselves together and improve ourselves. Finding women will be a natural side-effect of being stronger, more confident men.

 

[ryansambas]

i don't care about penile details too much to be honest, it's just because i put them there when i joined and i was far less insecure, i know when im hard that i'll be good enough. I think one girl is sort of geniune and wants the full 'she bang' (sorry english slang lol) and that's the one dating the 'midget' yet the one dating the rich 30 year old is probably a gold digger. i just laugh at those situations nowadays, i was a bit upset when i found out about the first one but not the second, oh well. I've been drinking a bit now so i'm probably not in the best mind to judge but I'm still opting to not have a relationship at this point in time, I value my freedom

 

[ryansambas]

Well I have 2 days left in the UK and I feel sh*t because of this, I don't know why I still feel like this quite often in the last few days, I don't know whether it's testosterone or the fact I am turning 21 soon and I haven't done anything but the girls in the UK I have been walking past thinking 'fuckkkk, she's very good looking, the things I'd do to her' and I feel sh*t because I haven't done anything yet the desire is there, I really need the release and I feel for sex since there's so many more people here, I feel the best looking girls in Australia are more relationship based and to have sex with someone within your standards it is probably going to have to be within a relationship whereas in the UK I feel it might be different but again my mind is so all over the place, it's hard to even explain what I mean. I think it's also the fact I'm here expecting to have sex (before I arrived) and have seen so many girls and the fact I haven't has started this problem which I will definetly take home with me.

I haven't felt this angry, frustrated, upset about this in my own head ever, it's not as if I want to have sex with anything that moves. I do have standards but I know what I'm saying is possible (obviously) so that's what makes it really annoying, so every time I walk past someone who I would have sex with I'm constantly thinking 'I'm not having sex with anyone as usual'. It seems like I have high standards but I don't think I do considering the amount of girls I have walked past thinking about it, and I don't know whether a relationship is what I want and yeah my mind is very strange at the moment that before writing this post now I thought I could explain a lot better.

Of course the worst part is I can't really talk to anyone until I get home next week, I'm pretty much with family and I have talked to it a little on private messages on facebook with my mate but not in detail and tonight I met a mate who I hadn't seen in 7 years and we talked for close to 3 hours at a pub then on a short walk home and I mentioned various parts throughout the night like girls I've asked out and briefly the predicament I'm in but obviously I can't have a huge conversation about this with someone I haven't seen in years. I'm officially sexually frustrated lol, and I don't have much confidence so that's the reason sex hasn't been on the cards! Not sure what the solution is, I'm actually worried when I get home that I think 'I'd rather have sex with the women in the UK'. There are 60 million people living in the UK in a much smaller area than Australia which has 20 million people so there is both quality and quantity in the UK so thats why I think I've seen a lot of good looking women because it's so populous whereas Australia has quality but since there are less people around, I think it's harder to find that quality except for a relationship.

It hasn't helped either that some of my mates have their own places (mostly student flats) in the UK because I know then I would have no problems and I could literally bring girls home, I live at home with my parents so my only chance to have sex is with a girlfriend. This has all probably been in my head for a while but now it's starting to explode out, it's not stopping me from having good times but what I'm finding now is after I do something good and it ends I'm thinking about how I'm NOT having sex and never have even though I'm almost 21, I feel like I could have had a lot of sex in the past 3-4 years like other people I know have.

 

[Thick_Unit]

I thought I would post in here rather than create a new thread since it's basically a continuation of how I feel. Still haven't had sex and I'm 21 in less than two months! I'm embarrassed because I can't even use the excuse of saving myself for the right person because that would be a load of bullshit lol.

Anyway it has all dawned on me more in the past few days then probably ever. I'm in the UK at the moment visiting where I used to live (I live in Australia) and I thought this would be the time to 'break my seal' and have a few sexual encounters but it is me we are talking about and of course that hasn't happened. It has been a sh*t visit and compared to Australia this place has been pretty depressing to me, my friends here have been boring as fuck so I haven't even went out with them. Only went out with one mate who doesn't even live in the same area anymore, talked to a few girls along a pub crawl but none at the club we ended up at and then i was let out of the club by a bouncer and I still don't know why, no big loss. There didn't seem to be a lot of girls and it wasn't even that good a place. Now here comes my controversial views, I feel in the UK it is probably easier to have sex casually and there is probably more quality to choose from in that route rather than a serious relationship in comparison to Australia just because of the population size and I believe the quality in Australia lies within relationships but I think my main problems over the years has been deciding which route to take and also because I have low confidence and always make excuses as to why a girl wouldn't have sex with me/go out with me. So I'm pretty annoyed because I feel I've wasted 3-4 years of potential experiences and I'm starting very late and just like that, it makes me feel a bit sad as well. I think I'd prefer to just have sex casually which obviously suits the UK but I can't help that now as I leave in a week

I don't really want a relationship as I do appreciate my freedom plus I've only asked two girls out and they both have boyfriends now with one being a rich 30 year old (She's 20) and one being I think the opposite in a short (not being mean, stating the truth), skinny and probably poor 20ish year old so I'm the most applicable out of the three (without being biased, others would agree) yet I'm not a choice for them for some reason, it's not really the relationship part either. It's all of the games and pre-relationship stuff I can't be bothered with but at the same time I don't want to be in a relationship just for consistent sex, I want to be in a relationship because I have feelings for the person.

I still live at home so that is my only valid excuse (probably the main reason why I haven't tried to have sex with any girls haha) as to why I haven't got laid but I should try and build up some re-pour lol but yeah I'm feeling very unfulfilled as a result, doesn't help when I think about other people and my mates etc who have been much more successful than me. I don't even look bad (I probably look better than I think), I've seen people worse looking than me be far more successful.

But yeah that's pretty much the scoop

Australian cougars?

They put out very easily. I was at my sisters place were she rents a room and the owner(female)had a Australian cougar over, she was trying to seduce me.

 

[ThinJohnny]

Hey Ryan, good to see you're updating us!

I recently had a short exchange with one of my friends about love, sex, and relationships. For me, and also for him, love and sex go together. You can have one without the other, like love without sex, which is apparent in strong friendships, family relationships, etc. Then you can have sex without love, like one night stands and FWB. What we determined is that sex without love is very unsatisfying, at least for us.

So, in that way, I decided to work on the love part; I worked on connecting with people. I worked on being a better listener, making friends, keeping my mind in the present, and basically having a lot of fun! What I found is that, once you make a strong emotional connection to someone, sex just naturally happens.

That is my advice to you. Don't focus on getting laid. Focus on being emotionally available, practice being emotionally vulnerable, make strong emotional bonds and connections. You will make lots of good friends, you'll have fun every time you go out, and then BAM! When you're not expecting it, it'll just happen. It'll feel natural, unforced, beautiful, and wonderful. Because, after all, it sounds like that's what you're after: sex with feelings. And it should be what you're after, because, like Outkast said, "Sex is always better when there's feelings involved."

Doesn't even have to be a relationship, either. I've developed a strong emotional bond with a woman before, and then we only spent one night together. BUT, first work on your ability to connect. Sex is a byproduct of this.

This is great advice. Nice post Qarzan. There is probably a small percentage of guys who can attract women through nothing but sexual attraction, but for most of us mere mortals, an emotional connection is essential, and like Qarzan said, will lead naturally to sex.

 

[Thrill Drill]

Hey Ryan, good to see you're updating us!

I recently had a short exchange with one of my friends about love, sex, and relationships. For me, and also for him, love and sex go together. You can have one without the other, like love without sex, which is apparent in strong friendships, family relationships, etc. Then you can have sex without love, like one night stands and FWB. What we determined is that sex without love is very unsatisfying, at least for us.

So, in that way, I decided to work on the love part; I worked on connecting with people. I worked on being a better listener, making friends, keeping my mind in the present, and basically having a lot of fun! What I found is that, once you make a strong emotional connection to someone, sex just naturally happens.

That is my advice to you. Don't focus on getting laid. Focus on being emotionally available, practice being emotionally vulnerable, make strong emotional bonds and connections. You will make lots of good friends, you'll have fun every time you go out, and then BAM! When you're not expecting it, it'll just happen. It'll feel natural, unforced, beautiful, and wonderful. Because, after all, it sounds like that's what you're after: sex with feelings. And it should be what you're after, because, like Outkast said, "Sex is always better when there's feelings involved."

Doesn't even have to be a relationship, either. I've developed a strong emotional bond with a woman before, and then we only spent one night together. BUT, first work on your ability to connect. Sex is a byproduct of this.

Wonderful post and great advice!!

Over the years, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that to put women on some sort of cosmic pedestal, beyond your capability, is the worst thing you can possibly do to yourself. The mindset of "I HAVE TO GET LAID, OMG I NEED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET INTO HER PANTS!" is self-detrimental and effectively eviscerates any chance you may have with the girl in the first place.

I always noticed that I had a perfect time talking to girls I wasn't interested in, I could laugh, joke and connect with them to the point where they would come onto me. But with girls that I DID want to sleep with, I would stutter, sweat and get nervous and never be able to carry a proper conversation.

What helped me was forgetting about sex when talking to females. Just get it out of your mind man. Life is an adventure, and every new individual you meet brings with him/herself the capability to enrich and give meaning to your existence. Don't worry about getting laid, worry about having fun, making friends, being nice to people, having an open personality, being the type of person that people turn to when they have problems, the guy that can make a woman feel good when she is feeling down and not looking at women as sexual objects but rather as companions in your journey through life.

If, after talking to a woman, you are able to note that during the conversation you both laughed, smiled, giggled, joked, had fun and felt good about each other, then you have succeeded my friend. Once you can do that, women will be tripping over themselves to be with you, not the other way around. Be yourself, there is nobody else in the world exactly as you are, you are unique, so let it out, don't be a pushover, be someone who people look up to and you'll do just fine.

 

[ryansambas]

I'm back again, I've been wanting to post in here for about 2 weeks but every night I have wanted to write another long post I've got really tired and went to bed so I've just wrote bullet points haha, saves you having to read another essay too:

-Being 21 soon, 4 years+ wasted by not having sex and/or a girlfriend
-2 years almost since I've liked the girl I've liked the most
-See a lot of girls walking about who I'd have sex with (i suppose primal male insticts and testosterone) but still does not give me the drive to do anything with females unfortunately
-Not sure if I want a relationship at the moment
-Feeling embarrased for not having sex yet
-Wish I could go out more (nightclubs, pubs etc) but don't have enough friends who want to
-Not sure what I can do at the moment overall
-feel like the girls I've liked are going out with guys inferior to me
-I have quite a lot of freedom at the moment but once I graduate university next July my parents expect me to work full time so I'll only have weekends free really.
-I always build up in my mind that sex is improbable due to living with my parents still, also I can't drive yet until next month with a license anyway whereas most people get their license at 18, always feel that held me back with meeting girls/dating/having sex etc

 

[bighead]

-Sex is not improbable due to living with parents. Just like me, I think you can find time slot where you would be able to have sex, not that you should or shouldn't. *Unless of course, they are home 24/7. Then you just have to have quiet mouse sex. on the floor. where it doesnt squeak, from my experiences.
-I think you should stop comparing yourself to other inferior guys, that's what I did. It only did harm, more than good for my relationship. For example, last week i just got over the fact that my girlfriend dated 3 guys previously before me. There's nothing you can do, its her past, her business.
-I had my v-card until my girlfriend now, who is my first. We both wished I moved at a slower place but I would have lost it anyway. I don't see why people think it's embarrassing? I hear that some girls are turned off by it, others don't care, and other girls (like mine) "appreciates" it. I say appreciate because I did wait for the right girl to lose my v-card to.
-I don't think you should be looking for a relationship, I am studying abroad right now and being in a relationship kind of limits your socializing capabilities. So take it as an opportunity in your life where you can just fucking meet lots of women.

I think you should watch some videos from them simplepickup guys and just work on self-confidence. Their tips, like all these tips here on the forums, really just opens you up and tells you not to give a fuck about what people think of you. It can be applied to things other than girls.

Also, I am 19 so not that far from you. I don't regret not taking all the opportunities to have sex, I just wanted to wait (more because of I wasn't ready).

 

[ryansambas]

In terms of sex at my house, it’d be fine if I was in a relationship. My brother has had 3 girlfriends and my parents know they have had sex in the house but there isn’t much that could be done about it, she isn’t allowed at my house anymore now though due to a stupid thing they did at a family friends house (obviously you can guess) which is good because I never really liked her and I think my brother always goes out with these emotionally damaged and clingy women who have no real qualities but he gets sex out of it so I guess that’s how he feels but I don’t know, I really don’t want to be like him in that regard, if I’m in a relationship with someone she has have morals and some form of class (I don’t mean up herself). I could have sex with randoms when they are away but I wouldn’t want to risk it, my room is at the back of the house and occasionally my Dad comes home from work early and so on, considering everything that happened with my brother and seeing as I’m looked upon as the ‘responsible one’ I’d probably be kicked out if they found out. My parents are quite traditional so the idea of me having sex with random girls is not one I’d want them to know about, I certainly would never do it whilst they are in the house, too many variables. I’d have to wake up early and try to sneak a girl out of the house, besides that I have a dog who sleeps in my parents room and a lot of things can set him off barking and sometimes my parents have to let him out in the middle of the night and such. It’s just not going to happen until I get my own place which is fair enough…unless I’m in a relationship because my parents would know and trust me.

And even if I could get away with it, me having quiet sex after never having it and being full of testosterone and finally getting that release seems like it’d be a great challenge in itself and not really enjoyable or worth it.

I don’t compare myself to these guys often, I just believe I’m a better individual on paper which again I don’t really want to think differently but I just accept it. When I go out with a girl, chances are she has a history of some sort so that won’t bother me too much most likely (unless she talked about them a lot plus I wouldn’t be the type to ask many questions about ex boyfriends and such, could not care less).

I’m embarrassed because I would love to have sex on a consistent basis, I’m not willing to have sex with anything that moves but at the same time I could be having an active sex life with girls who are somewhat similar to me in beliefs and such. I highly doubt that if I lose my virginity to a girl I’m in a relationship with that I’ll tell her before we do it, that would probably wait until I fully trust the person. I know some people believe you should trust the person before you do that but I’m being realistic.

I’ve never actively looked for a relationship, I’ve liked and been interested in girls obviously but not because that was what I was aiming for when I met them. They have came along through work, university, nights out etc. The one thing I don’t want to be at the moment is tied down and spending a lot of time with one woman, it’d be great to be in a relationship with a girl I value highly but I still value independence in the form of spending a lot of time with my friends. I have a few groups of friends and one group is pretty much all relationship based so I only see them when we are all going out which is maybe once a month, if that because most the time they are spending time with each other which is fair enough but I don’t necessarily want that, that is how the girl I liked at work is with her boyfriend now so I guess it worked out for the best that I didn’t go out with her.

I have downloaded some pick up e-books, I'll probably read them when I have time. I'm happy enough to go out and enjoy myself at the moment, I just can't scratch off the feeling that I've sort of wasted a lot of time because I haven't had sex in the last 3-4 years.

 

[Brandon85]

Hi Ryan,

After reading your post, it is full of confusion and contradiction.

First, you consider yourself a better person than your brother who sneaks girls into your parents home to have sex with them BUT you talk about possible scenarios in which you could.

You talk about the possibility of having consistent sex BUT not with just anyone.

You have never actively looked for a relationship and don't want to be tied down with one woman but yet would like to be with a woman you highly value while maintaining your independence.

And then you close with saying that you wasted a lot of time for the past 3-4 years.

You are in the discovery part of your life. Who am I? What are my values? What do I find important in others? Etc etc etc.

 

[ThirdArm]

PUA ebooks? Which ones?

After my little stunt with PUA, here's what I have to say in general: Some of the guys are very good at relating to their target market. They'll tell you a story about how they were just like you..."MAN!" until they discovered a few tricks that somehow turned them around.

And I bet they get honest testimonials from guys that used their stuff and made it work. But do you know why it worked? Not because of the money spent, or the tricks and tips and lines in the ebooks. It's because these same guys who bought the material finally decided to make changes. They basically paid for permission to approach and approach and approach. To fail with one woman and try again with another.

The whole reason calling it "game" works is because it is a temporary emotional disconnect for guys who have been experiencing loneliness and rejection for a good part of their lives. By taking it less seriously they try more frequently with less hesitation and statistically speaking they will eventually hook a few women. But it sounds like 'hooking a few women' isn't exactly what you're looking for.

Take some time, Ryan. Get in touch with your rugged manly side. Assertiveness. Confidence. Strength to make decisions. I think your perspective will begin to change from one of a man who feels stuck in a lopsided negotiation, to one who finds he has a good deal to bring to the table.

 

[TheSperminator]

PUA ebooks? Which ones?

After my little stunt with PUA, here's what I have to say in general: Some of the guys are very good at relating to their target market. They'll tell you a story about how they were just like you..."MAN!" until they discovered a few tricks that somehow turned them around.

And I bet they get honest testimonials from guys that used their stuff and made it work. But do you know why it worked? Not because of the money spent, or the tricks and tips and lines in the ebooks. It's because these same guys who bought the material finally decided to make changes. They basically paid for permission to approach and approach and approach. To fail with one woman and try again with another.

The whole reason calling it "game" works is because it is a temporary emotional disconnect for guys who have been experiencing loneliness and rejection for a good part of their lives. By taking it less seriously they try more frequently with less hesitation and statistically speaking they will eventually hook a few women. But it sounds like 'hooking a few women' isn't exactly what you're looking for.

Take some time, Ryan. Get in touch with your rugged manly side. Assertiveness. Confidence. Strength to make decisions. I think your perspective will begin to change from one of a man who feels stuck in a lopsided negotiation, to one who finds he has a good deal to bring to the table.

:agree:

Still I like to read PUA books because they contain some usefull advice/tips sometimes + a bit of psychology and social dynamics is always good. It gives confidence and that shows in other ways, not only seduction. I bet you a lot of sales men are superbly well with women. Persuasion and manipulation skills are so cool and don't give me that "you're manipulating women, it's disrespectful"-crap. We get manipulated all the time, constantly.

 

[CaptainJohnson]

:agree:

Still I like to read PUA books because they contain some usefull advice/tips sometimes + a bit of psychology and social dynamics is always good. It gives confidence and that shows in other ways, not only seduction. I bet you a lot of sales men are superbly well with women. Persuasion and manipulation skills are so cool and don't give me that "you're manipulating women, it's disrespectful"-crap. We get manipulated all the time, constantly.

Thats fair. I have a very angry attitude towards the PUA community at large, but I have also read the material out there and some of it is based on some decent work. I was really into cold reading a couple years back, and that really helped me too. People who say its "manipulative" are ignorant. Everyone has different levels of social skills. Those who got shafted and can't relate well need to work their asses off to learn how. This involves developing healthy body language, reading non-verbal signals, and recognizing how to communicate/express one's self.

If that is manipulation, then I guess society is a bunch of shmucks manipulating each other, and the only normal, truly kind individuals are the socially awkward. Now I know this isn't true, so that means some people who fail to understand human behaviour are just ignorant.

If I was born with the social skills I have now, I would never have ventured into the field of psychology, and I would have never made it a life goal to aid people like me who have suffered from social anxiety.

 

[TTBB]

I think it can be manipulative and i am not ignorant.
In the right hands pua skills can be a positive thing that helps build confidence and general social skills ..in the wrong hands it can be manipulative, hallow and destructive.

 

[CaptainJohnson]

I think it can be manipulative and i am not ignorant.
In the right hands pua skills can be a positive thing that helps build confidence and general social skills ..in the wrong hands it can be manipulative, hallow and destructive.

But that's the kicker. That is no different than any other person. A smooth talking guy who is a natural womanizer can be incredibly manipulative, but does that come from the fact that he knows PUA? Nope, his talents come naturally to him, and he misuses them. PUA, or any application of psychology to develop social skills, is literally just that: learned behaviours for the purpose of developing improved social skills. If someone uses those improperly, it is not the skills that are manipulative, its the person.

If a beautiful girl uses her looks to get a guy to buy her a drink, are her looks manipulative, or is she manipulative?

Its not the skills we build or the "techniques" we use that are manipulative, its the choices we make. That's part of why I have such a hate-on for PUA. The community is focused on "picking up women" and their mind-set breeds manipulative behaviours, but the fundamentals they are all learning are legitimate ways to aid people with serious issues like social anxiety. Why can't they teach people to use these skills to improve themselves as people and become social, confident, individuals? To use these skills to meet people and develop healthy relationships? Some PUAs do, no question, but when the community at large pushes theories like "the alpha male" and "oneitits", the atmosphere and lessons they teach become toxic.

Its a real shame. So much good, being used in such a shitty way...

I didn't mean to sound insensitive, I just find people jump on the basic ideas behind PUA without understanding how to apply them. People often view psychology as a magic wand, and PUA is no exception. It scares them.

 

[Nachos87]

I think people don't realise what Pick-Up is all about. It isn't about manipulation, like everyone thinks. I'm not even sure of what they think manipulation means... any examples? You can't really manipulate anyone into believeing you're something that you're not. People, especially women, can tell if you're incogruent. You'd have to fake every single body language detail and every body movement in order to fake these kind of things.
PUA is about changing yourself into an attractive guy, hence everything you do is genuine. This is not about becoming something you're not. This is getting back to what you have been before society changed you into a brainwashed fearful mess.

Do you remember that, when you were little, you were playful, fearless, curious, in the moment etc etc. Then society changed you by filling your head with illogical bullshit that isn't benefiting anyone.
That's what today's Pick-Up is all about. Deprogramming yourself from social conditioning and irrational fears. And this is obviously not only about Pick-Up.

I think you just read/watched the wrong Pick-Up materials.

EDIT ABOUT MANIPULATING: What you say, accounts for 10% tops, of the whole attraction proccess.

 

[ThirdArm]

The good: Realizing that there are plenty of women out there that may be compatible with you, thus not getting too upset when a few women (whom you barely even know) flake on you; Gaining the ability to approach, even if it's difficult; Making an effort.

The bad: Turning socializing into a virtual board game; The belief and/or mindset that you have to follow a special pattern of attraction and comfort-building; Getting too micro overall.

The list could be much longer. That's just off the top of my head.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that so much of this stuff is extreme over-analysis. Improve yourself. Meet women. Filter for the compatible ones. Really though, I doubt that many men want to be PUAs by definition. They just want to invite more women into their lives.

 

[CaptainJohnson]

I think people don't realise what Pick-Up is all about. It isn't about manipulation, like everyone thinks. I'm not even sure of what they think manipulation means... any examples? You can't really manipulate anyone into believeing you're something that you're not. People, especially women, can tell if you're incogruent. You'd have to fake every single body language detail and every body movement in order to fake these kind of things.
PUA is about changing yourself into an attractive guy, hence everything you do is genuine. This is not about becoming something you're not. This is getting back to what you have been before society changed you into a brainwashed fearful mess.

Do you remember that, when you were little, you were playful, fearless, curious, in the moment etc etc. Then society changed you by filling your head with illogical bullshit that isn't benefiting anyone.
That's what today's Pick-Up is all about. Deprogramming yourself from social conditioning and irrational fears. And this is obviously not only about Pick-Up.

I think you just read/watched the wrong Pick-Up materials.

EDIT ABOUT MANIPULATING: What you say, accounts for 10% tops, of the whole attraction proccess.

I never said that was what I meant when I referred to manipulating. What is manipulative, is the entire MINDSET of PUA. From ideas such as "the alpha male" to the ideas such as "oneitits". PUAs are conditioned to view their techniques as a tool to attract women rather than a tool to develop social skills. There is a HUGE disconnect in the rationale behind PUA, and it runs rampant through the entire industry. PUA is essentially marketed social skills with a chauvinistic overtone pitched to insecure, socially awkward males. Those men would be better off studying the psychological principles behind PUA to develop a deeper and less biased understanding of human nature. It would make them see that this is how all social interaction functions and that what they are learning is essentially trainer tips to socialize. Unfortunately, most don't see this and view it as a formula for "getting women into bed". I am not here to bash the material, as my posts should have made clear. I am simply illustrating how the philosophies and founding ideas behind PUA are manipulative in their very nature.

Hell, its even in the name... Pick-up Artist... what does that mean?

Pick Up (Urban Dictionary): To meet someone, usually at a bar or party, and persuade them to leave with you in order to have sex. Used for in-person encounters, as opposed to hookup, which can also be used for internet meetings for sex.

Nacho, what you described is what the smart guys are doing. Clearly, you fit that bill, but it is not what PUA was designed as. All the tools are there, but most people don't view them the way you do, or use them the way you do. They abuse the lessons they learn and take advantage of what is out there. Its a shame, but its true... and the community is basically streamlined for this kind of thinking. I love psychology, and since my life goal is to specialize in social and sexual psychology, I have made it my business to know a lot about PUA. I have even gone out sarging a few times when I was single to help a few friends who were into it. I even loved some of the approach anxiety games which I used myself to help get some friends to take more chances. Manipulation is everywhere, not just in the PUA community... but the PUA community is a breeding ground for it.