American vs Japanese cars

[DemOne]

Dude, EVERY manufacturer issues recalls on cars.............and yes, that does include Nissan, Toyota and Honda. I seem to recall a certain Japanese auto brand that lost MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars in profit because of acceleration issues (yes, talkin' Toyota here). Toyota tried to cover their sh*t up too. Some of these issues went back to the late 90's.

As was said above, American cars back in the 70's and 80's and even the 90's SUCKED! My first new car ever was a 1989 Ford Escort..........that car was a flaming piece of crap! It was nothing more than a modern day Ford Pinto. And back in the late 80's, just about EVERY American car was getting sh*t reviews from Consumer Reports. That isn't the case anymore. I see many, MANY more American cars getting "recommended" ratings than I ever used to in the past.

Of course every manufacturer is going to have problems, but you can't deny that something is wrong when for the past 12 years Ford has issued recalls for the same exact problem, most of which is on the same models. You'd figure that they would have actually fixed the problem by now, but every year it's the same old sh*t.

 

[MrBigDick]

Of course every manufacturer is going to have problems, but you can't deny that something is wrong when for the past 12 years Ford has issued recalls for the same exact problem, most of which is on the same models. You'd figure that they would have actually fixed the problem by now, but every year it's the same old sh*t.

Ford has had their share of recalls and problems. No, can't deny that. However, there are several other manufacturers out there who have had similar issues.

 

[engleangle]

It all depends on what you mean by the best. To me, Japanese cars are better than American cars. All car companies will have cars that break down and aren't perfect, but American cars of late break down so much more than Japanese cars, mostly because they're made with such old and crappy technology down in Mexico, but meanwhile most Japanese cars are made with newer technology in America, Canada, and Japan.

Though the biggest thing to me as to why Japanese cars are better are the following:
1) They can get more power out of an engine than American manufacturers can.
2) They can make a car that corners.
3) They can make a car that brakes so much better.
4) Their fuel economy sucks.

Look at the new Corvette. Most of it is made out of ABS plastic that deforms quite easily, it can't corner for sh*t without a hell of a lot of mods due to it's prehistoric rear end, and it weighs a ton. They need a 7L, 427 cu. in V8 to get 505HP out of the 2012 Z06. Meanwhile, the Honda HSV-010 (which is going into production soon) makes 485HP from it's 207.3 cu in V8. Less than half the capacity as Corvette's engine and nearly the same horse power and is only going to be selling for about $20,000 more than the newer Corvette.

In America, it's all about displacement, displacement, displacement...and going fast in a straight line. That however doesn't make a better car.


Also, pure numbers of how many sold doesn't indicate one car manufacturer is better than another. Nobel makes cars that can and usually do beat Ferrari, however Nobel only makes and sells 50 cars every year and Ferrari makes and sells around 5,000 cars a year, excluding customer race cars.

You also have to remember, cars sold in the American market by both Japanese and American companies are nothing like what you can get in the rest of the world. They're specifically manufactured for the mind-frame of Americans, and that is mostly that they want big, heavy, fuel thirsty, pieces of sh*t cars. You find some of the American cars over in other markets like the Corvette and GT40's, but in tiny numbers and they're altered to meet emissions and other EU/JDM standards, but still suck down fuel like crazy.

Japanese cars in other markets are a hell of a lot different than what we get here. I'm lucky enough to have been inside Mazda's main development race team's facilities in the US and even the JDM spec Speed 6 and RX-8's are nothing like the ones sold in the American market. Parts may swap over, but the technology is different, especially since in almost every other country cars are speed capped/limited because there's no reason to have a 500+HP cars that can hit 200mph on the streets as a daily driver.

Edit again: I'm also a mechanic who's worked on both American and Japanese cars, and I'd rather work on a Japanese car any day of the week. I'm still very much fond of big V8's that can easily be made to produce 1000+HP, but they're still not necessarily better.

Alright this is a numbers game for sure. alright hp/l is greater on imports then American cars usually. Lets see how they make this power and this also goes along with the motorcycles. American engines are made to produce more mid range power then almost any Japanese car. Jap cars are made to make hp at very high rpms. American cars usually have bigger tq numbers lower rpms while jap cars usually are torque-less. Rx-8s about those.... well they make a ton of power per liter but look at the torque! its a damn joke. I went to the drag strip and this guy had a extremely loud high revving rotary motor and couldn't keep up with most b series n/a hondas. rotary motors are really only good with turbos, which then you have to rebuild the motor and so on so forth. The new ford motors are super impressive. the eco-boost and the duratec line of motors are honestly detuned. the new 5.0L makes 412 hp at the crank. tune it and it puts 402 whp down. They are really detuned from factory. the 3.7 in the v6 mustangs are at 305hp at the crank they usually pick up 25hp on a tune. they are extremely tunable. I have a vw Gti that has grabs 172tq at 1900rpm. It runs out of steam in the higher rpm range but thats cause its made to be a tq monster. the german/euro cars has similar ways of making power that the american cars have. Bigger motor, higher intake velocity= more tq. Slap a cylinder head with the flow that a Japanese motor has on a high displacement motor and rev the piss out of it youll achieve the beloved hp/L ratio but your tq will go down the drain.

 

[DemOne]

Ford has had their share of recalls and problems. No, can't deny that. However, there are several other manufacturers out there who have had similar issues.

Not like Ford has had when it comes to fires.

 

[DemOne]

Alright this is a numbers game for sure. alright hp/l is greater on imports then American cars usually. Lets see how they make this power and this also goes along with the motorcycles. American engines are made to produce more mid range power then almost any Japanese car. Jap cars are made to make hp at very high rpms. American cars usually have bigger tq numbers lower rpms while jap cars usually are torque-less. Rx-8s about those.... well they make a ton of power per liter but look at the torque! its a damn joke. I went to the drag strip and this guy had a extremely loud high revving rotary motor and couldn't keep up with most b series n/a hondas. rotary motors are really only good with turbos, which then you have to rebuild the motor and so one so forth. The new ford motors are super impressive. the eco-boost and the duratec line of motors are honestly detuned. the new 5.0L makes 412 hp at the crank. tune it and it puts 402 whp down. They are really detuned from factory. the 3.7 in the v6 mustangs are at 305hp at the crank they usually pick up 25hp on a tune. they are extremely tunable.

There are American engines that are made to rev high, just like there are Japanese engines that are made to rev lower. Low, mid, and high range power are also down to more than just engine capacity and how fast an engine revs.

 

[NCGUY1972]

I have a F250 Super Duty 4x4 long bed ext cab Deisel not practical for everyday and $150.00 to fill up but it does average 18mpg, the vette gets close to 30mpg and my tahoe gets about 18-22mpg its going on 120k miles the only thing I have ever fixedd on it is the catalytic converter it has been a great truck.

 

[NCGUY1972]

You can get ridiculous power from the LS based chevy motors 1,000+ very easy and still idle at stoplights. Its not that the americans couldnt do it but when your making 400-500 hp and its reliable, good gas milage, good street manners why worry about more for the average consumer? To the few that want some more throw in a cam, blower, headers whatever and the american cars respond like crazy!

 

[somebodyelse]

Alright this is a numbers game for sure. alright hp/l is greater on imports then American cars usually. Lets see how they make this power and this also goes along with the motorcycles. American engines are made to produce more mid range power then almost any Japanese car. Jap cars are made to make hp at very high rpms. American cars usually have bigger tq numbers lower rpms while jap cars usually are torque-less. Rx-8s about those.... well they make a ton of power per liter but look at the torque! its a damn joke. I went to the drag strip and this guy had a extremely loud high revving rotary motor and couldn't keep up with most b series n/a hondas. rotary motors are really only good with turbos, which then you have to rebuild the motor and so on so forth. The new ford motors are super impressive. the eco-boost and the duratec line of motors are honestly detuned. the new 5.0L makes 412 hp at the crank. tune it and it puts 402 whp down. They are really detuned from factory. the 3.7 in the v6 mustangs are at 305hp at the crank they usually pick up 25hp on a tune. they are extremely tunable. I have a vw Gti that has grabs 172tq at 1900rpm. It runs out of steam in the higher rpm range but thats cause its made to be a tq monster. the german/euro cars has similar ways of making power that the American cars have. Bigger motor, higher intake velocity= more tq. Slap a cylinder head with the flow that a Japanese motor has on a high displacement motor and rev the piss out of it youll achieve the beloved hp/L ratio but your tq will go down the drain.

This man knows what he's talking about...

And don't get me started on rotary engines, OMG the biggest lame brain idea...

It's completely Asinine their "displacement" numbers. They're not amazing "per litre" power makers... They're HUGE f*cking engines. Each face, on the mazda built rotaries, is 654cc... Each face... there's 3 faces on each rotor. for EACH rotor, the potential engine displacement is 654... so 654x3 is 1962cc... 2 liters PER rotor... That means a twin rotor is 4 liters... FOUR liters. I don't care that each rotor is spinning at 1/3 the speed of the eccentric shaft, the COMPLETE combustion cycle of EACH rotor is 3 faces. 3 faces per 2 rotors is 4 liters....

200hp from a 4 liter engine ISN'T phenonal nor is its HP/liter. They're a complete sham. I was a big fan of rotary engines until I realized the way they're "counted" is a numbers game. It's creative math... I'm not impressed at all by the torque they put out... a conventional ICE will out do any rotary displacement for displacement. There's a reason they get horrible gas mileage... it's not because it's inefficient, it's because that's as efficient as you can get a 4 liter engine with no power... Rotary engines are a joke.

NOW, lets get down to the torque thing...

Torque... That's what we HAVE here... that's what's needed in this country, we have high speed freeways and lots of acceleration is needed. Torqueless wonders are only fast because they save time shifting and they carry torque up into Higher RPMs. Horsepower in and of itself is ONLY a function of torque and RPM.

I hate when people talk about HP/liter because it's a fantasy number... It's used by people who don't know what they're talking about to try to sound like they've got the upper hand...

HP/Liter... BS, you can make 100hp/liter with carburated cars... many Toyota Levins and Truenos can pull off that number. The REAL test of efficient power is TORQUEper Liter...

Natural Aspiration and small engines just can NOT get the torque they need to do anything. You have to rev the hell out of car to get the power down with small engines. Most companies are recognizing this. Honda had a car called the S2000. I'm sure most of us car guys are very familiar with said car. This car, when it came out, was the epitome of the Honda Powered 4cylinder Gutless wonder... The car was SO bad that halfway through its lifecycle Honda ACTUALLY increased the displacement and lowered the Rev limit because its customers complained of lack of power...

Lack of power? How can that be it was making 100+hp / liter... the problem was it was BARELY making 75lb-ft per liter AT its peak, which means it was making 50- 60lbs-ft per liter in most of its rev range.... You know what 50lbs-ft per liter is in that car?! 100lbs-ft of torque... 100lbsft of toque!!!!! That's a f*cking GEO METRO! The S2000 handles, yes, i give it that. And one a race track at high revs, it can put its 160lbs-ft to use more often... However on the road, they were completely useless...

Torque is FAR more important than Horsepower... well Both are very important, but the ONE thing I'm REALLY happy about with American manufacturers is that they're picking up the torch... Most Japanese manufacturers are trying to make their small engines as powerful as possible but they're STILL lacking torque. It's because they don't have to worry about the acceleration loads on their highways. The highways that we have here require TORQUE. In Europe (Especially Germany and France) They have the SAME highway issues, need for acceleration... a lot of American manufacturers and European manufacturers recognize the need for a car to be livable day to day and reliable. They've all employed some form of forced induction NOT for horsepower... but for TORQUE and fuel efficiency. Take a look at Mercedes dropping their Big engines and going turbo... BMW that once said "Turbocharging is the cheap shortcut to horsepower" is now realizing in order to not get embarassed by their competition, they need to put some huffers on their cars... Low and behold, BMW 528i is back, this time with a 4 cylinder turbo... And amazingly, it gets better gas mileage AND is FASTER than its naturally aspirated predecessor (still over priced though).

the new Dodge Dart uses a 1.4 liter engine turbocharged... The base engine is a 2.0 with 160 horsepower and 148lbs-ft of torque... The 1.4 liter is 160 horsepower and 184lbs-ft of torque.... I'll give you a few seconds to guess which one is faster...

they both have 160hp, but one is going to get murdered by the other and one with the smaller engine (which, BTW is actually more fuel efficient as well) is going to be the faster of the two...

Torque is the determining factor in the importance of an engine... you can make 100hp/liter all day, but you can't make 100lbs-ft per liter... Not without some help.

 

[somebodyelse]

When it comes down to it, The Germans and the Americans are killing the Japanese as far as cars are concerned.

And Toyota would not HAVE a truck if it wasn't for their Partnership with GM... yes the Tundra was a joint Venture. and they wouldn't be in the Craftsman Truck Series without GM's engine. they started with GM and worked their way into the Craftsman Truck series AND then finally made their way into the Sprint Cup "NASCAR" races... GM, an American brand, helped them get into that league of racing.

To be honest, again, Japanese cars aren't offering anything amazing... All I see is a bunch of old ideas recycled, except from Acura's top line models. They're pushing as far as you really can go...

The real innovators are the American car companies...

GM's Volt
Fisker's Karma
Tesla's Model S

I can go on, but I'll leave it there. The Americans are the only people actually pushing the envelope.

 

[DemOne]

I'm confused now.

Are we just talking about the American market, or the manufacturers at a whole? Because there's very few Japanese designed/manufactured cars in the US anymore due to what Americans want.

 

[somebodyelse]

I'm confused now.

Are we just talking about the American market, or the manufacturers at a whole? Because there's very few Japanese designed/manufactured cars in the US anymore due to what Americans want.

Nice deflection.

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Honda is much the same...

Toyota is also the same way...

Seriously, japanese cars ARE here... there's no denying that.. and Honda and TOYOTA have both had their fair share of recalls for fires. Lets not kid ourselves.

It's really just silly to even argue this.

I just got my hair set on fire by the HP/Torque argument.

 

[DemOne]

No deflection, I'm serious. What brought me to that was your mention of electric cars, and well there's an absolute ton of Japanese ones.

I know for a fact that most of the Honda/Acura cars currently selling in this country were designed in California, usually manufactured in Ohio or Canada, and the engines/transmissions and electronics coming from Japan. Most of the Honda/Acura cars are basically the same car, just a different body and name right now. The models may be the same, but the cars are different.
It's just like what Ford does. The USDM and EDM cars are pretty much only similar on the outside. Different markets have different requirements, mostly based on what customers are looking for.

But, what Honda recalls for fires are you talking about? The only one that I know of is for the CR-V from around 2005 and it was only for a handful (less than 10) issues over 4 years or something.
Honda's airbag recalls aren't even due to any actual problems either. Safety standards have changed, so they just recall all airbags that are now unsafe due to current knowledge of what is safe and what isn't. They warranty SRS for life for a reason.

 

[somebodyelse]

We're talking about world class, daily livable electric cars that can be used in all parts of the world. America is at the forefront... most of Europe is in love with the diesel engine... rightly so, once they figured out the pollution/Soot problem they're actually quite practical. That said, if we were to entrust our Futures to Europe, we'd be in the dark ages...

The idea is that American manufacturers push the envelope with every technology. Ford had one of the first SOHC Street legal V8s on the planet... 1964 saw the first SOHC engine... (Of course the Europeans were ahead, in that sense, because of their "aristocratic" forms of racing. SOHC was used as early as the mid 50s for Ferrari)

In 1964, Honda was just putting out a Motorcycle engine powered S600 with chain drive.
Ford FE engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just saying, Americans have been at the game longer. and granted the 80s and 90s were dark times (cars sucked then) The American car has made an amazing comeback...

The only people who refuse to accept it are those who are mindlessly led around the automotive world by Jeremy Clarkson... an Admitted German car fanatic (nothing American will ever be liked by Jeremy Clarkson).



BTW:

A recall is a recall...

Japanese manufacturers just have a hard time admitting fault.

My car (a japanese luxury car) had a faulty Passenger Air Bag computer that had to be replaced... it was ONLY covered up to 157,500 miles (for what ever reason) under a warranty... that's part of the SRS system, and NO it was not under a lifetime warranty... It's a 1300 dollar job if you're outside of the mileage.

It took an impending NHTSA investigation and a lawsuit to get them to extend the warranty from 75,000 miles to 157,500

 

[engleangle]

But yes most jap cars are torque-less wonders. It was funny, ford brought over a stock 5.0L mustang to japan to show off to the drifters who had most turbo 4 bangers. and they drove the mustang and was like wow the torque is right at your feet they all wanted to buy one. Dont get me wrong i love turboed goodness but it kinda depends on how a motor is built.

For example: many 1.8t owners want to go with a large port head and gt3071R turbos to push serious power. Im going to run a small port head just have it cleaned up a little bit. Run a small intake cam and a intake manifold with longer runners then stock. run a gt2871r and push around 350-375whp out of it. but i will have a good range of torque pumping out of that little motor. Im also going to run a Air-water intercooler to cut down intercooler piping to get better throttle response. Im also gonna keep my rpm a little bit over stock but not much higher.

 

[helpmeout]

Japanese cars... definitely.

 

[vulcan]

Of the two, I prefer American. I loved the muscle and pony cars of the 60's & 70's - and the new versions that have come out in the last few years are doing justice to those model names.

My perception is that the American companies have improved the build quality in recent times. My problem with Japanese cars, is the looks.