You did not mention the needs of desperate people. They are also preyed upon by science and its theories. Until proven by the scientific method- proven data (which is why you men are here, I suppose) I, and many others trust their intuition based on what we believe to be the correct facts. Back up thinking-we can see it, feel it, touch it, breathe it-results. Solution to problem.
Solution to ALL PROBLEMS
- Thread starter Gogulik
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In all the time I have been finding these things out, I have not paid 1 cent. I did buy some books from Amazon on ancient Indian Spirituality, for my entertainment and education. I was surprised to find that what was being said in those books is the same with what modern day science is saying, mainly quantum science describing the string theory and the role of consciousness.
Just type on google or youtube: the root cause of disease or something else that was discussed in this topic. No doubt that some will try to sell you things, but I guarantee that there are hundreds of free articles and videos. Check out the Living Matrix video which we discussed earlier. Read some testimonials of people who experimented with alternative medicine. There is 'proof' everywhere, but it's just a matter of wanting to expand our mental boxes or if we are comfortable being limited (it is very comfortable to be limited, change can be scary for some)
Just type on google or youtube: the root cause of disease or something else that was discussed in this topic. No doubt that some will try to sell you things, but I guarantee that there are hundreds of free articles and videos. Check out the Living Matrix video which we discussed earlier. Read some testimonials of people who experimented with alternative medicine. There is 'proof' everywhere, but it's just a matter of wanting to expand our mental boxes or if we are comfortable being limited (it is very comfortable to be limited, change can be scary for some)
Ah well it may or may not be - but companies and individuals heavily invested in "green" companies have tried to use science for their own benefit - that is all.
This sort of vague non-statement is the reason people die thinking homoeopathic remedies (water) will protect them from Malaria.
On the other hand, the scientific method gave us thought controlled computers for paraplegics, the internet, fly-by photgraphs of saturn...and so on.
Science seeks to prove, by consistent reproduction and elimination of external influences. If "alternative" techniques are so powerful and so effective as to be labelled "the solution" to anything then why resist scientific analysis? Quantum mechanics as a science exists because there's a reproducible effect that van be consistently demonstrated. We don't understand it, and trying to do so has set the scientific community on fire for the last 100 years. It's exciting, and many many new things are being discovered along the way as we gain understanding.
Half the reason people are so quick to judge science is because they don't understand it and confuse science with the current body of knowledge. The other half is a mistrust of commercial medicine.. which I can understand. But you don't have to trust big business or governments to trust science.
Case in point. I came here to tackle my premature ejaculation problems. I read a thousand things telling me it was all in my head, to no avail. I even had something of an epiphany where I opened my eyes a little to spiritual thought on the basis that it provided a model for working with the more esoteric sides of life. However, it was the scientific approach to examining the causes and effects that Pegasus and Minuteman among others have been so diligent about that made me stay. And helped me tackle my Pre E with 100% more success than any positive mental attitude could have. We're all still learning. trying things out, testing them. And when things consistently work, we test them some more, and we're learning more about this problem and the ways to beat it than ever before. Probably more than most professionals in this area.
Or I could just pray to some god, because somebody told me once that he is all and knows all. Shame he won't tell me, huh. How convenient.
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Is our behavior guided by science or by spirit? Inquiring minds want to know. Which leads me to sk-why are you men out there-here? If it is for conversations like this-I am with ya.
Well, now we are getting into predetermination, chaos theory, and alternate/parallel universes.
How much money do medics get from surgery? If people knew there was no difference between some surgeries and pure placebo (as in, they heal themselves through belief), how would medics eat? I know a woman who re-grew her cervix through the power of visualization. A friend's friend (I can already hear 'urban myth\ 
) cured herself of leukemia by simply seeing herself as perfectly healthy.
There is a whole other world out there that is just not 'mainstream' yet, probably because it would mean the head honchos would not get as much money if people would learn their true nature (which involves healing these 'problems'... which are just some symptoms)
) cured herself of leukemia by simply seeing herself as perfectly healthy.There is a whole other world out there that is just not 'mainstream' yet, probably because it would mean the head honchos would not get as much money if people would learn their true nature (which involves healing these 'problems'... which are just some symptoms)
Gog - man - I am finding it harder to support your view points when you tell me about these women that re-grew body parts through visualization. That just doesn't happen bro. I'm finding myself in a median between you and Spanky but you are slowly drifting away my friend.
Globel warming-just another life cycle. Humans, animals, insects, weather-always changing. Change can be upsetting to others but a necessary evolution.
Maybe I was too extreme... my bad . I should take it down a notch. These things do happen, but it seems impossible because we are the masters of limitation
There are a few glaring modern-day examples that show just how powerful placebos can be . and how misleading some medical advice can be.
One has to do with antidepressants, which are one of the most prescribed drugs in the United States. Antidepressant drugs have been proven to be no more effective than sugar pills. Some studies have even found that placebo pills may produce better results than antidepressants!
Personally, I believe the reason for this astounding finding is that both pills work via the placebo effect, but the sugar pills produce far fewer detrimental side effects, making them far preferable to the antidepressants.
Another example of the power of the placebo effect was published in the classic New England Journal of Medicine knee surgery study.
This was, without question, one of the most amazing studies I have ever seen published, as it definitely proves the power of your mind in healing.
This double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-center trial performed at some of the top U.S. hospitals found that most knee surgery results in a $3-billion hoax. It is not actually the surgery itself that is responsible for the improvement, but rather is the placebo effect. More precisely, it's the ability of your brain to produce healing when you believe it should be happening (such as after you receive knee surgery).
. I should take it down a notch. These things do happen, but it seems impossible because we are the masters of limitationThere are a few glaring modern-day examples that show just how powerful placebos can be . and how misleading some medical advice can be.
One has to do with antidepressants, which are one of the most prescribed drugs in the United States. Antidepressant drugs have been proven to be no more effective than sugar pills. Some studies have even found that placebo pills may produce better results than antidepressants!
Personally, I believe the reason for this astounding finding is that both pills work via the placebo effect, but the sugar pills produce far fewer detrimental side effects, making them far preferable to the antidepressants.
Another example of the power of the placebo effect was published in the classic New England Journal of Medicine knee surgery study.
This was, without question, one of the most amazing studies I have ever seen published, as it definitely proves the power of your mind in healing.
This double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-center trial performed at some of the top U.S. hospitals found that most knee surgery results in a $3-billion hoax. It is not actually the surgery itself that is responsible for the improvement, but rather is the placebo effect. More precisely, it's the ability of your brain to produce healing when you believe it should be happening (such as after you receive knee surgery).
I would say that desperate people are more preyed upon by "alternative" therapies - when mainstream science, skewed by the interests of big business admittedly, has failed them - what could be more welcoming than a thousand year old placebo-driven technique accompanied by a great bedside manner.
I have no doubt that alternative therapies have benefits. It appears (after countless trials) that they offer little more than the benefits of increased patient/GP time, and placebo. But that's fine if it's an appropriate treatment. I suspect that many GPs prescribe placebo too, because it works.
To an extent.
The problem I have, and many of us on thread have, is not that placebo itself doesn't work, it's that alternative medicine comes from the perspective that mainstream science doesn't, and seeks to discredit it rather than enhance it. That single thing there is beyond dangerous, and people are dying, and will continue to die as a result. All this conjecture is fine, and fun, but when people are dying from ignorance and belligerence in rejecting all that's come before, I'm sorry but that's just cult brainwashing with tragic consequences that I find it kinda difficult to keep quiet about.
So who proved that anti-depressant pills are no better than a placebo? Do you know or treat many people who are depressed? How many suicides and how much quality of life are hepled by mood elevators or anti-depressants. Do you spend much time in the medical field or observing and/or treating patients? Your view of depression and of ways to treat depression are not on target and please don't tell me it's just some doctors that just want to make money and really don't care about people. Until you walk in their shoes it would be wise not to judge!
I dont agree, mainly because ALL if not many of the alternative medicine techniques do not advise you to stop your 'normal' medication. Alternative medicine is to be used parallel to the normal medicine. Of course, some people choose not to use the main stream medicine. Main stream medicine is mainly just focused on 'destroying' your problem (which actually just a symptom), while certain alternative medicines choose to understand the root of your symptom and address that. Alternative medicine aims to make the person understand the issue and heal himself. No medicine heals anyone, it's the person who does. If you do a transplant, the body has to accept and integrate the other part.
It's really not fair to say: some people who try alternative medicine die because they don't stick to the normal medicine. How many die on mainstream treatment? It's not a logical argument
It's really not fair to say: some people who try alternative medicine die because they don't stick to the normal medicine. How many die on mainstream treatment? It's not a logical argument
It was an article that I read, just surfing for some evidence because you guys need it. They are not my own words. These are the findings of studies. I did not personally investigate these things, they are researched. As I said, if you look for the evidence and proof, you will find it.
I remember reading a similar story in new scientist about Prozac some time back, but I haven't heard it repeated. Most antidepressant drugs work directly on brain chemistry and have very real and dramatic neurophysiological effects. I am familiar with some of them, and it ain't placebo. Placebo does also work of course, but to nowhere near the same extent. Also, clearly sugar pills are significantly cheaper to produce, and I'm quite prepared to believe that GPs prescriptions may start with the real drug so as to establish a demonstrable result for the patient, and then move to placebo. In fact, not only is that cheaper, but as you say, it's also far healthier for the patient.
That MO is of course conjecture on my part. I would be interested to hear from GPs as to whether that was deemed an appropriate course, or even how much it goes on.
A close family member of mine has suffered from clinical depression most of her life. She was prescribed Prozac and she became a different person overnight. It was *shocking* and I convinced her to stop. She fell back into depression, and eventually in desperation went back on the prozac. This time it worked, but the dramatic character shift we saw earlier on was no longer evident. I would be quite prepared to believe that was placebo the second time around.
A joke was played on a friend, we gave him a pill and later said it was X. He flipped and went nuts, acting all crazy. You can't really know if your reaction was due to the pill or just your expectations. Look at the 'scientific journal' where it says people were no better off receiving a surgery than a fake surgery. It will take some time until these things become mainstream because right now people are too greedy, they have too much to lose if people realize they don't need to go to the doctor for everything or take a pill for everything
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