Ukraine
- Thread starter Pegasus
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Russia has launched an all-out invasion of Ukraine by land, air and sea, the biggest attack by one state against another in Europe since World War II and confirmation of the worst fears of the West. The attacks began on Thursday after Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a televised address that he had approved a “special military operation”. The move came after Moscow earlier recognised rebel-held territories in Luhansk and Donetsk and said they had asked for its “help”. Russian missiles rained down on Ukrainian cities. Ukraine reported columns of troops pouring across its borders into the eastern Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Luhansk regions, and landing by sea at the cities of Odesa and Mariupol in the south. Russian troops attacked Ukraine from Belarus, as well as from Russia with Belarusian support. An attack was also being launched from the annexed Crimean Peninsula, Ukraine’s border guard service said. Al Jazeera's Andrew Simmons in Kyiv, Ukraine.
Once a lying, murderous KBG agent, always a lying murderous KBG agent. He even convinced the Chines to go along with his invasion.
I'll go out on a limb here... unless members here are either Ukrainian or Russian - or have an equivalent wealth of cultural/language knowledge of the region - opinions and ideas (for or against Russia) here are bound to be a repetition of what you've already read in the media.
Only thing I will say: I'm against all wars. And if it was said that all diplomacy attempts were "exhausted", then I say all parties involved either didn't try hard enough or never intended to resolve the matter through peaceful means in the first place (and that usually means BOTH sides failed).
Only thing I will say: I'm against all wars. And if it was said that all diplomacy attempts were "exhausted", then I say all parties involved either didn't try hard enough or never intended to resolve the matter through peaceful means in the first place (and that usually means BOTH sides failed).
I do not claim to be an expert on Ukrainian/Russian relations; however, I did take a course on Russian history in college and as a history buff, I have done some research into the evolution of the existence of Ukraine as an “independent” state. In short, the history of the Ukraine is very complicated and complex.
The region now encompassing Ukraine and surrounding areas,being ruled be a number of principalities, became known as Kievan Rus in the 11th century and was the largest state in Europe. The name Ukraine first appeared on maps in the 16th century. The individual principalities were ruled by grand dukes. At one point during this period, the region was ruled by a Hungarian nobleman, but eventually the region came under the control of the Mogol Empire in the 14th century. The Mogol invaders were eventually fought off by Lithuania and Poland resulting in the north/northwest region coming under control of Lithuania and the south/southwest region coming under control of Poland, with the jointly ruled regions subsequently combining to form a Commonwealth. Then in the mid 16 hundreds along came the Cossacks to fight off the rule of the Commonwealth and petitioned Russia to help overthrow the Commonwealth resulting in a treaty in 1667 splitting control between the Commonwealth and Russia. Under the Russian protectorate, the Cossacks retained some autonomy; however, During subsequent decades, Tsarist rule over central Ukraine gradually replaced 'protection'. Sporadic Cossack uprisings were now aimed at the Russian authorities, but eventually petered out by the late 18th century and most of Ukraine fell under Russian rule under the reign of Catherine the Great.
The Ukrainian War of Independence (1917 - 1919) produced the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic which agreed to join the Soviet Union. After World War II some amendments to the Constitution of the Ukranian SSR were accepted, which allowed it to act as a separate subject of International law in some cases and to a certain extent, remaining a part of the Soviet Union at the same time. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state, formalised with a referendum of December 1991. Over 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence with majorities in every region also voting for independence.
The region now encompassing Ukraine and surrounding areas,being ruled be a number of principalities, became known as Kievan Rus in the 11th century and was the largest state in Europe. The name Ukraine first appeared on maps in the 16th century. The individual principalities were ruled by grand dukes. At one point during this period, the region was ruled by a Hungarian nobleman, but eventually the region came under the control of the Mogol Empire in the 14th century. The Mogol invaders were eventually fought off by Lithuania and Poland resulting in the north/northwest region coming under control of Lithuania and the south/southwest region coming under control of Poland, with the jointly ruled regions subsequently combining to form a Commonwealth. Then in the mid 16 hundreds along came the Cossacks to fight off the rule of the Commonwealth and petitioned Russia to help overthrow the Commonwealth resulting in a treaty in 1667 splitting control between the Commonwealth and Russia. Under the Russian protectorate, the Cossacks retained some autonomy; however, During subsequent decades, Tsarist rule over central Ukraine gradually replaced 'protection'. Sporadic Cossack uprisings were now aimed at the Russian authorities, but eventually petered out by the late 18th century and most of Ukraine fell under Russian rule under the reign of Catherine the Great.
The Ukrainian War of Independence (1917 - 1919) produced the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic which agreed to join the Soviet Union. After World War II some amendments to the Constitution of the Ukranian SSR were accepted, which allowed it to act as a separate subject of International law in some cases and to a certain extent, remaining a part of the Soviet Union at the same time. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state, formalised with a referendum of December 1991. Over 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence with majorities in every region also voting for independence.
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It's a great start, even if you're not an expert. Thanks for sharing.
If I can add a tidbit that might be of interest. As someone who appreciates Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) culture, the Kievan Rus (modern Ukraine) established trade and cultural relationships with the Byzantine Empire. I am almost certain that they inherited Orthodox Christianity from the teachings of Byzantine missionaries Cyril & Methodius. The tough Varangian (Rus) warriors served as an elite corps in the Byzantine army (Varangian guard). Some say that even after the capture of Constantinople by the Ottoman Turks in 1453, it would seem that the Rus became the sole preservers of what was left of Byzantine culture, a bizarre but fascinating mixture of Greek, Roman and Near Eastern cultures.
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No only a child would think both sides have to fail in a diplomacy . it is obvious BOTH SIDES have to be interested for diplomacy to work .That is if either side is not in good faith it will fail .
What do you guys think? I guess Peg here doesn't like me much... trying to school me on logic n' all. The living reference on diplomacy.
Have a good one, Peg!
We all need to express our point of view, with a degree of respect to one another, and each person's point of view. We do have our respect policy. :becky:
Did any of you think diplomacy would work? If you did I want to know what drug you're taking and I bet it's not legal.
How can you put pressure on Putin when you're importing about 600,000 barrels of oil a day from the guy at a 100 bucks a barrel? We gave him the money to invade Ukraine. Well done Joe.
How can you put pressure on Putin when you're importing about 600,000 barrels of oil a day from the guy at a 100 bucks a barrel? We gave him the money to invade Ukraine. Well done Joe.
I agree that Putin seems to be in a better position to dictate terms.
Not sure that diplomacy was impossible to achieve though. Looking at Zelensky's profile, I just wonder how on Earth he managed to get elected. The man has virtually zero qualifications for the job. I am not defending Putin here. I am simply suggesting that a more competent person for the presidency of Ukraine may have taken a better stab at diplomacy. But of course, no guarantee that would have avoided war either..
Zelensky was elected by the people of Ukraine. Maybe they think he had enough qualifications to run the country. He's sure better than the bubblehead we got and they say Joe had great qualifications.
At least Joe isn’t congratulating Putin for doing a great job in acquiring vast lands at minimum expense
Are you that daft? Don't you know sarcasm when you read it?
Trump - “He’s taken over a country for $2 worth of sanctions,” he said, “taking over a country — really a vast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people — and just walking right in.”
The sarcasm = $2 dollars worth of sanctions.
Gotta stop reading the NY Slimes! Those people are not journalists, they're morons.
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Julius Ceasar; he really was a terrible man. He slaughtered millions of people on his way to power. in doing so he created an empire that brought many good things to Western culture and yet we admire him for what he did and forget about all his atrocities. Mussolini of Italy became a bum after he started chillin with Adolf but before that he was the only Italian leader who got the trains to run on time and the mail delivered regularly. Chairman Mao; he created the beginnings of an economic giant we call China today. He sure did kill a lot of people though.
We have been told to learn through history. Now none of the guys I mentioned were choir boys were they? The world hates them. Now an intelligent man will not ignore the faults but will also look at things they accomplished and learn how they did it. They could have been ruthless, or clever or at times even both. If you want to get the train to run on time how did Mussolini do it? Does that mean you love the guy? Not at all but you could learn a bit from him. Want to build an empire? See what ole Julius did. I am sure besides killing lots of people he somehow made some clever moves to get him where he got. How did Mao get so many people to follow him?
Oh my Trump said he admired Putin for his cleverness in taking Ukraine, first Crimea and now the whole country so he must love Putin. Take the names and personalities out;if you want to take over a country Mr X had a way it worked. You may not like how he did it but you did a learn a way to take over a country. Hey maybe you'll try that way one day if you want to take over a country or learning from that experience you might try a more peaceful approach. Now if you dare say that guy sure was clever the way he took over the country then you must be as evil as the guy who did the bad thing. That's childish. I still remember how great a running back OJ Simpson was but because I admire his skill as a player does that mean I love a murder? Get real!
My daughter was 3 and I was at the park with her by the swings. There were 6 swings and a little boy was on one swing. My kid told me she wanted to go on the swings. I said go ahead. She said she wants to go on the swing the little boy was on. I said but the boy is on that one. She said she'll get him off.
I watched her walk toward the swing being close enough to stop her if she tried to push him off. She got about 5 feet from the swing,pointed and shouted " there's a worm on that swing". The little boy started to cry and got off. My kid turned to me and said now I can go on that swing.
Did I like what she did? No way I was pissed but I had to give her credit that she figured out a way to get what she wanted in a non violent way. You can admire someones action and not have to be in love with that person or even respect them;. It's the act, very often a single act that deserves respect eve if the guy is an ass.
We have been told to learn through history. Now none of the guys I mentioned were choir boys were they? The world hates them. Now an intelligent man will not ignore the faults but will also look at things they accomplished and learn how they did it. They could have been ruthless, or clever or at times even both. If you want to get the train to run on time how did Mussolini do it? Does that mean you love the guy? Not at all but you could learn a bit from him. Want to build an empire? See what ole Julius did. I am sure besides killing lots of people he somehow made some clever moves to get him where he got. How did Mao get so many people to follow him?
Oh my Trump said he admired Putin for his cleverness in taking Ukraine, first Crimea and now the whole country so he must love Putin. Take the names and personalities out;if you want to take over a country Mr X had a way it worked. You may not like how he did it but you did a learn a way to take over a country. Hey maybe you'll try that way one day if you want to take over a country or learning from that experience you might try a more peaceful approach. Now if you dare say that guy sure was clever the way he took over the country then you must be as evil as the guy who did the bad thing. That's childish. I still remember how great a running back OJ Simpson was but because I admire his skill as a player does that mean I love a murder? Get real!
My daughter was 3 and I was at the park with her by the swings. There were 6 swings and a little boy was on one swing. My kid told me she wanted to go on the swings. I said go ahead. She said she wants to go on the swing the little boy was on. I said but the boy is on that one. She said she'll get him off.
I watched her walk toward the swing being close enough to stop her if she tried to push him off. She got about 5 feet from the swing,pointed and shouted " there's a worm on that swing". The little boy started to cry and got off. My kid turned to me and said now I can go on that swing.
Did I like what she did? No way I was pissed but I had to give her credit that she figured out a way to get what she wanted in a non violent way. You can admire someones action and not have to be in love with that person or even respect them;. It's the act, very often a single act that deserves respect eve if the guy is an ass.
I do not read The NY Times. I watched the video of his speech. It wasn’t sarcasm, it was mean spirited drivable, which he excels at. The ass even said he would have prevented it. You know, the guy who wanted to withhold military aid until the Ukrainians generated dirt on his political rival.
