I can see where your coming from and i also don't agree with lashing out at people. I think the reason why they get jumped on is because a lot of members myself included don't see why we should put considerable amount of effort into persuading them that it works and providing proof. We all became believers by either reading through the Articles found on the home page, carrying out endless studying and last but definately not least giving it a go ourselves.
Skeptic looking for proof
- Thread starter skeptical
- Start date
I can see where your coming from and i also don't agree with lashing out at people. I think the reason why they get jumped on is because a lot of members myself included don't see why we should put considerable amount of effort into persuading them that it works and providing proof. We all became believers by either reading through the Articles found on the home page, carrying out endless studying and last but definately not least giving it a go ourselves.
yeah man i fill you. one thing we must all remember is that, perception and deception is a big factor when it come to this site or pe as a whole. whether we want to point out the elephant in the room or not.
Photographic Evidence or the Lack Of
Photographic Evidence or the Lack Of
I totally agree with OP; hard evidence has been lacking.
Many people seem to not have heard of a science class, a ruler, or basic photographic techniques.
This is a real shame; we are NOT here because we hate our dicks, we're here to make them GROW.
And the one tool that has been consistently proving its worth over the years is evidence based science.
What we're doing is completely discarding that and going back to ad hoc remedies, rumors and anecdotes.
We shouldnt be using the computer really if we went by that thinking; we should be serfs in 11th century Europe.
If OP is still around, he is welcome to check out my attempt at [accurately] documenting growth through PE.
https://www.pegym.com/forums/progress-forum/30616-high-res-photolog-journey.html
It is still in very early stages, so please feel free to ask for any modification while you still can.
Photographic Evidence or the Lack Of
I totally agree with OP; hard evidence has been lacking.
Many people seem to not have heard of a science class, a ruler, or basic photographic techniques.
This is a real shame; we are NOT here because we hate our dicks, we're here to make them GROW.
And the one tool that has been consistently proving its worth over the years is evidence based science.
What we're doing is completely discarding that and going back to ad hoc remedies, rumors and anecdotes.
We shouldnt be using the computer really if we went by that thinking; we should be serfs in 11th century Europe.
If OP is still around, he is welcome to check out my attempt at [accurately] documenting growth through PE.
https://www.pegym.com/forums/progress-forum/30616-high-res-photolog-journey.html
It is still in very early stages, so please feel free to ask for any modification while you still can.
https://www.pegym.com/forums/success-forum/27155-routines-picture-proof-picture-comparison.html
all the proof that's needed.
all the proof that's needed.
I didn't read this entire thread, but I will offer my thoughts.
First, I don't have proof for everyone else. I tried taking photos but it is difficult. I tried once and I chose not to waste my time on it again. However, what "scientific" proof are people actually looking for? If we are talking scientific we need a reliable amount of people, we need independent views on measuring (because someone would eventually say photos are doctored), we need exact routines including tension and pressure of grip (which requires technology) which eventually comes down to a relatively precise methodology. Scientific testing requires a tremendous amount of resources. I don't have the money to invest in proving PE works.
However, the fact that people come back to this site, advise others, and update their own progress should be plenty of proof for skeptics to try it out. I was skeptical. My entire life is based on evidence and information. Just like in the court of law, sometimes you don't have scientific evidence. You must use deductive reasoning, logic, and you must be able to inter-connect events. Why on earth would I keep coming back to a website about PE if I were not gaining? What is my motivation for coming back to an online forum such as this? The only motivation is the fact that it is working, I am seeing results.
You can believe it or not just like a jury can believe the credibility of an eye-witness or not. The skeptics out there are in a better position compared to the jury though. The skeptics here can actually perform the behaviors themselves and come to a conclusion. No jury I know of has that luxury.
First, I don't have proof for everyone else. I tried taking photos but it is difficult. I tried once and I chose not to waste my time on it again. However, what "scientific" proof are people actually looking for? If we are talking scientific we need a reliable amount of people, we need independent views on measuring (because someone would eventually say photos are doctored), we need exact routines including tension and pressure of grip (which requires technology) which eventually comes down to a relatively precise methodology. Scientific testing requires a tremendous amount of resources. I don't have the money to invest in proving PE works.
However, the fact that people come back to this site, advise others, and update their own progress should be plenty of proof for skeptics to try it out. I was skeptical. My entire life is based on evidence and information. Just like in the court of law, sometimes you don't have scientific evidence. You must use deductive reasoning, logic, and you must be able to inter-connect events. Why on earth would I keep coming back to a website about PE if I were not gaining? What is my motivation for coming back to an online forum such as this? The only motivation is the fact that it is working, I am seeing results.
You can believe it or not just like a jury can believe the credibility of an eye-witness or not. The skeptics out there are in a better position compared to the jury though. The skeptics here can actually perform the behaviors themselves and come to a conclusion. No jury I know of has that luxury.
Making it sound like a religion
Making it sound like a religion
This makes PE sound like a religion. Or at least making the "ad populum" error.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Because religious believers have this same exact line of thought; "Hey, they're still talking about Christ right?"
But just because something is popular has nothing to do with merits of the underlying evidence backing an idea.
Also, in a court, the type and nature of evidence is strictly controlled.
It may not all be 'scientific' (as in repeatable, disprovable hypothesis, etc) but what is allowed into court has been worked out over many centuries.
It has to meet fairly stringent standards before getting to a jury.
Making it sound like a religion
This makes PE sound like a religion. Or at least making the "ad populum" error.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Because religious believers have this same exact line of thought; "Hey, they're still talking about Christ right?"
But just because something is popular has nothing to do with merits of the underlying evidence backing an idea.
Also, in a court, the type and nature of evidence is strictly controlled.
It may not all be 'scientific' (as in repeatable, disprovable hypothesis, etc) but what is allowed into court has been worked out over many centuries.
It has to meet fairly stringent standards before getting to a jury.
people are trying to study it and verify the countless successful claims through science.
before Galileo proved the earth orbits the sun, most people wouldn't believe it.
I'm just here hoping PE is gonna have it's galileo someday
or maybe not, then everyone would be doing it haha
before Galileo proved the earth orbits the sun, most people wouldn't believe it.
I'm just here hoping PE is gonna have it's galileo someday
or maybe not, then everyone would be doing it hahaAre you suggesting that PE is mainstream and popular like religion? I think you misunderstood the argument that ByggD was putting forth. Note that he said "However, the fact that people come back to this site, advise others, and update their own progress should be plenty of proof for skeptics to try it out." Try it out being the key word. Perhaps the term "proof" should be replaced with incentive. Nonetheless it is definitely not an argumentum ad populum. I don't believe PE works because everybody says it does. I tried it for that reason, but I believe it works because my fucking penis grew. There is a difference
...
There is no meter to gauge how well God has listened to our daily prayer. But there is a ruler to see how well our penis has responded to exercise.
Analogy to Religion
Analogy to Religion
>Are you suggesting that PE is mainstream and popular like religion?
No. But believing in something without evidence is faith.
>Note that he said "However, the fact that people come back to this site, advise others, and update their own progress should be plenty of proof for skeptics to try it out."
This is EXACTLY what sounded religious.
"The fact that many people go to Mass and find comfort in it means you should give it a try."
>Nonetheless it is definitely not an argumentum ad populum.
It seems to be; because he's saying that people believe in it, so give it a try (believe in it to a degree yourself).
>I don't believe PE works because everybody says it does. I tried it for that reason, but I believe it works because my fucking penis grew.
If you could document that properly, then it'll be evidence.
Analogy to Religion
>Are you suggesting that PE is mainstream and popular like religion?
No. But believing in something without evidence is faith.
>Note that he said "However, the fact that people come back to this site, advise others, and update their own progress should be plenty of proof for skeptics to try it out."
This is EXACTLY what sounded religious.
"The fact that many people go to Mass and find comfort in it means you should give it a try."
>Nonetheless it is definitely not an argumentum ad populum.
It seems to be; because he's saying that people believe in it, so give it a try (believe in it to a degree yourself).
>I don't believe PE works because everybody says it does. I tried it for that reason, but I believe it works because my fucking penis grew.
If you could document that properly, then it'll be evidence.
You're confusing anecdotal evidence being sufficient for further investigation via personal trial and anecdotal evidence being grounds for blind acceptance.
Religion requires faith alone. PE requires physical results. If physical results do not come then it could be classified as myth (assuming the person didn't great a self-fulfilling prophecy).
Just because something is popular? PE isn't popular and I never said that PE shouldn't require evidence. What I said was me coming back here updating my progress and advising others is a piece of evidence skeptics could use to their advantage. It seems skeptics want to dismiss every claim other than scientific evidence. I don't have it and if people require that to perform PE then you should move along. There isn't any scientific evidence. There is plenty of evidence, just not scientific.
Skeptics need to consider what I did when I first went about this process. I asked myself, "Why would they be here if they weren't actually seeing results." It would be a complete waste of time. Most individuals on a forum have little invested in the forum itself. Considering this forum is based on people seeing progress it is easy to conclude that people are seeing results. Why else would they be here? Why would they keep coming back? Why would they not speak up and say that PE is a bunch of BS? And most importantly, if they are not seeing results, why do they remain invested in a lie that they don't need to be? That, again, would be a complete waste of time.
Lastly, I never said this instance is *exactly like a jury. It is a simple simile. No reason to generalize it so much.
Precisely the Point
Precisely the Point
This is exactly the point.
The OP was talking about data.
You're talking about living and acting in and on an uncertain world.
I can understand exactly where you're coming on this, if what you say is:
"Hey, where there's smoke, there might be fire."
But that is hardly the kind of evidence OP was asking for; he's asking for proof of the fire itself.
There is some.
But I too am disturbed by the lack of respect for at least thinking about rigorous data collection.
I look forward to producing my own data.
Precisely the Point
This is exactly the point.
The OP was talking about data.
You're talking about living and acting in and on an uncertain world.
I can understand exactly where you're coming on this, if what you say is:
"Hey, where there's smoke, there might be fire."
But that is hardly the kind of evidence OP was asking for; he's asking for proof of the fire itself.
There is some.
But I too am disturbed by the lack of respect for at least thinking about rigorous data collection.
I look forward to producing my own data.
Wait. I say people should try it out and you are asserting that this is blind faith? That is laughable. What that comment says is people keep coming back because they are seeing physical results. You should try it out because you will either see physical results or you won't. Not sure why you want to suppress this issue so much. It is nowhere near blind faith. I think you are being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical.
Steve23
Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero
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No clue why some people argue over all this anyways, we don't force them to come here, it's not like were taking their money If they need help or suggestions, we give it, if they aren't sure about doing it or if it works or not, we don't force them and yell at them saying its real, then can feel free to look at a success forum and see people over the years and their progress, if they want more proof, too bad for them, go give someone money and let them take 1 photo each year then make a flipbook out of it
If they need help or suggestions, we give it, if they aren't sure about doing it or if it works or not, we don't force them and yell at them saying its real, then can feel free to look at a success forum and see people over the years and their progress, if they want more proof, too bad for them, go give someone money and let them take 1 photo each year then make a flipbook out of it No clue why some people argue over all this anyways, we don't force them to come here, it's not like were taking their money
You know how much money I spent on my .4" gain? Absolutely nothing; zero dollars
. I also gained zero dollars from helping people and spending time here. Let me tell you, all of that zero net profit is working wonders. It helps me maintain the lie Man, if it didn't work I wouldn't spent time on this website. PE has taken over my life, pretty time consuming, being on this website all day..but I wouldn't have it any other way....because it works...
