If the penis is 50% muscle than I can not see the negative effects of trying to enhance and strengthen that muscle within reasonable boundaries. Not only that they have medical-grade extenders for growth and correction. I can not imagine dr's endorsing it if they concluded long-term damage. Either way John Doe does make some volid points/concerns.
Long Term Consequences
- Thread starter Johndoe
- Start date
LMAO about that vacuum study - not too well controlled.
Anyway - you should be fine in the LONG RUN, if you edge regularly. Blood and heat is what helps restore the damaged tissues, and the pro-growth hormones produced by edging. But, there MUST be a restoration period every once in awhile. If somebody does PE all the time, continuing to break down the penis without restoring it, that could cause major issues!
Anyway - you should be fine in the LONG RUN, if you edge regularly. Blood and heat is what helps restore the damaged tissues, and the pro-growth hormones produced by edging. But, there MUST be a restoration period every once in awhile. If somebody does PE all the time, continuing to break down the penis without restoring it, that could cause major issues!
I guess I'm the old timer here as far as PE goes, compared to me, you guys are all infants. After discovering Black's Beach in 1975, I decided I wanted to get more attention from women so I started pumping. Actually, I think I had a touch of "small penis humiliation" syndrome back then and wanted my wife to see some really big cocks at the beach, to get her really horny. At that time I had been through junior high, high school, through college, through the service and had worked in industy that all had gang showers so I thought I knew where I was in the penis pecking order. I don't know what my size was though, I didn't measure. The only thing different about me at Black's Beach was that I didn't shrink to nothing like a lot of other guys do.
Anyway, in 1975 I bought a pump at an adult store and have pumped aggressively since then till early this summer. I also did everything I could using my hands, though not in a very sophisticated way. Four years ago I started experimenting with the "tube" and this summer have transitioned elcusively to the tube because it is not compatible with pumping. After pumping, I can't get into my tube for weeks and I think "tubing" has given me good permanent gains over a short period of time.
When I pumped, I would pump for three hours at moderate vacuum and end up with an 8.5X6.5+ flaccid penis, sometimes I would do this for several days in a row and it would get bigger each day until I got too sore to pump. Now that its winter, I'm going to pump four or five days in a row, three hours each day, just to establish a photo record and do some measurements for documentation purposes.
Now, after 35 years of very aggressive PE I have ended up with 7.25+" BPEL and 6+ FL and I have tried to document these measurements here as objectively as I can in photos. If I'm at a nude beach or in a gang shower situation I very seldon (read almost never) see anyone bigger than me. MOST importantly and most germain to this thread, my penis health is excellent. I use Viagra or Cialis from time to time but I don't need it to get erect, just to show better which is a big turn on to me, I'm very vain in this respect. I made love to my wife last night, no Viagra, no Cialis but I did have a 7.25 inch rock hard erection when I had a glorius orgasm doin it doggy style. If that soesn't speak to the "risks" or "effects" of PE, nothing does.
Anyway, in 1975 I bought a pump at an adult store and have pumped aggressively since then till early this summer. I also did everything I could using my hands, though not in a very sophisticated way. Four years ago I started experimenting with the "tube" and this summer have transitioned elcusively to the tube because it is not compatible with pumping. After pumping, I can't get into my tube for weeks and I think "tubing" has given me good permanent gains over a short period of time.
When I pumped, I would pump for three hours at moderate vacuum and end up with an 8.5X6.5+ flaccid penis, sometimes I would do this for several days in a row and it would get bigger each day until I got too sore to pump. Now that its winter, I'm going to pump four or five days in a row, three hours each day, just to establish a photo record and do some measurements for documentation purposes.
Now, after 35 years of very aggressive PE I have ended up with 7.25+" BPEL and 6+ FL and I have tried to document these measurements here as objectively as I can in photos. If I'm at a nude beach or in a gang shower situation I very seldon (read almost never) see anyone bigger than me. MOST importantly and most germain to this thread, my penis health is excellent. I use Viagra or Cialis from time to time but I don't need it to get erect, just to show better which is a big turn on to me, I'm very vain in this respect. I made love to my wife last night, no Viagra, no Cialis but I did have a 7.25 inch rock hard erection when I had a glorius orgasm doin it doggy style. If that soesn't speak to the "risks" or "effects" of PE, nothing does.
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i think PE is like anything else and is good in moderation. Like with eating or working out, too much of anything is bad. If you PE every single day and never take a break, probably not good for you. Although i do think it can be bad to intensely PE. Im under the impression that doing light jelqing routines, never pulling too hard when stretching, doing some edging and kegels, and only hanging with light weights will be beneficial. Ive been PEing for a year and 2 months and have only seen improvements in size and erection quality. What happens down the road is still uncertain i guess, but if it has been helping with erection quality and getting size i dont see why, once you kind something that works for you, anything would go terriblly wrong and all the sudden cause problems. Also, i tend to take breaks from PE every once and a while. like PE for a few months then take like a1-2 week break just to let everything chill out. This is just my opinion on the matter.
Kingpole has been in the game for close to 6 years, higherone has been at it a while but I'm not sure how often he logs in here. My mind's gone blank for others.
Apologies for not reading the links provided but the one titled 'rec drug use in regards to ED' or something like that got my attention seeing as you were talking about DLD. Well, as you probably know, he is a former heroin addict so there's always the chance that if he does lose his erection when stood then it's because of that and not years of PE. Also when he described himself as 'quirky', well I'm guessing you also know that he has OCD, could also contribute.
I think it was Blink2000 that made the plunge into PE after finding out that doctors actually recommend it. He was referring to how people who have gone through lengthening surgery then have to hang afterwards. That's where th gains are actually made!
Apologies for not reading the links provided but the one titled 'rec drug use in regards to ED' or something like that got my attention seeing as you were talking about DLD. Well, as you probably know, he is a former heroin addict so there's always the chance that if he does lose his erection when stood then it's because of that and not years of PE. Also when he described himself as 'quirky', well I'm guessing you also know that he has OCD, could also contribute.
I think it was Blink2000 that made the plunge into PE after finding out that doctors actually recommend it. He was referring to how people who have gone through lengthening surgery then have to hang afterwards. That's where th gains are actually made!
The study was done in Italy, Traction Devices were used for one year. The point of the study was whether mechanical manipulation, i.e. traction would correct Peyronie's. There was correction as a result, not 100% as I recall, but some. The added benefit was an overall average increase in length of approx 1/2". The study is widely quoted here, so you should be able to reference the complete figures.
Now you should recall that not all innovations in medicine are met with open arms. Recall that the Australian physician the pioneered the treatment of Helicobacter as a cause of stomach ulcers was called insane and almost driven from the practice of medicine. So when looking at information you must also qualify that information with whose rice bowl is at risk.
Your question is a good one, but I don't think you will find any concrete answer. You will probably be able to find a handful of people who have practiced PE for 10 years, but the sample will be too small to draw any solid conclusions. The sample will also have been self-selected. If someone had experienced significant adverse effects from doing a thing, would they have continued doing it for 10 years?
Redbear52 last line is a huge point..
I've also been researching in the X4 labs forum. Alot of those members do in fact use PE in conjuction with the extender, and actually have harder erections, and not symptoms of ED, impotence, venous leakage, etc etc. That's a huge plus in my opinion in the safety of it. Although there are still injuries that occur for no apperant reason in alot of other individuals which is very intresting.
I've not seen 'one' person (at least at this point on that particular forum) that I've seen complain of actual or confirmed fibrosis as a result of after years upon years of doing PE. Nor does anyone in that group really seem all that concerned. But I haven't found anyone that has done it for say... 2 or 3 years and then stopped... and then all this sudden woke up one day having issue's with ED, fibrosis, and or venous leakage 5-10+ years longer afterward.
You would also think it would only be logical if you were doing something wrong or major damage that your penis would give you INSTANT "clue's" or major negative indicators, along the way to protect you against something as bad as Venous Leakage, or permant ED for example. But I could be wrong. I guess the question is does the penis work like other muscles in the body? If so, you can have confidence of safety with the clues of pain, before you do something catastrophic. Or is your penis really that complex and mysterious.
Venous leakage appears to be the worst issue of all to overcome, (if it's even possible) to overcome. I'm no expert on it. But in my own findings it MAINLY appears it's something you either born with, or occurs as result of an obvious and blunt trauma.
I've also been researching in the X4 labs forum. Alot of those members do in fact use PE in conjuction with the extender, and actually have harder erections, and not symptoms of ED, impotence, venous leakage, etc etc. That's a huge plus in my opinion in the safety of it. Although there are still injuries that occur for no apperant reason in alot of other individuals which is very intresting.
I've not seen 'one' person (at least at this point on that particular forum) that I've seen complain of actual or confirmed fibrosis as a result of after years upon years of doing PE. Nor does anyone in that group really seem all that concerned. But I haven't found anyone that has done it for say... 2 or 3 years and then stopped... and then all this sudden woke up one day having issue's with ED, fibrosis, and or venous leakage 5-10+ years longer afterward.
You would also think it would only be logical if you were doing something wrong or major damage that your penis would give you INSTANT "clue's" or major negative indicators, along the way to protect you against something as bad as Venous Leakage, or permant ED for example. But I could be wrong. I guess the question is does the penis work like other muscles in the body? If so, you can have confidence of safety with the clues of pain, before you do something catastrophic. Or is your penis really that complex and mysterious.
Venous leakage appears to be the worst issue of all to overcome, (if it's even possible) to overcome. I'm no expert on it. But in my own findings it MAINLY appears it's something you either born with, or occurs as result of an obvious and blunt trauma.
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I agree. And no matter how many theories there are, no one on any of these forums really knows the exact mechanisms of growth, or all potential causes of injury. The bottom line is that thousands of guys do PE and many (most) benefit from it. There is also a very small percentage that develop some problems, (ED, soft glans, hard flaccid, etc, etc), either long term or short term. Whether or not they would have developed these problems without PE is not known for sure, and in some cases specialists can't identify a particular problem/solution.
The best you can do is start out very slow and easy, giving yourself a chance to see how your body reacts. And ALWAYS go by your PIs, rather than some set schedule, routine, or desire for growth.
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I agree with you guys on monitoring PI's, I think that is important in preventing injury and seeing how the training is effecting your body. I also don't think we will probably not get a definitive "scientific" answer regardless of what question we pose. However, it is good to hypothesize and at least try to make conjectures as to what biologically is going on. What I think is even more important than the mechanism for growth, is the mechanisms through which people are injured. If you don't grow so what, nothing lost, but if you develop a permanent hard flaccid or venous leak then this is potentially a life altering incident. What I find scary is that some people on thundersplace state they have experienced injuries from nothing more than mild jelqing that have left them impotent. You see these people get slammed on the forum as the mods are in disbelief and they are labeled as trolls and liars. I don't see what motive these guys could have for making up a penis injury on a free, non advertisement based forum. The point being, some people seem to get injured even when following sound advice from the vets. Hard flaccid alone has a never ending thread to itself.
So, how can we identify the potential risk factors for those who may get hurt with even mild PE?
So, how can we identify the potential risk factors for those who may get hurt with even mild PE?
You have to consider that erectile dysfunction is recognized to be of much greater prevalence, even in younger men, than was recognized in prior years. For one thing, many younger men were reluctant to mention it to physicians, and prior to the advent for drugs like Viagra, there was often little (that the sufferer would find acceptable) that could be done about it.
The incidence of chronic health problems that increase the likelihood of ED have also been on the rise, including more wide-spread use of the more dangerous recreational drugs, diabetes, obesity and cardiovascular disease. I suspect many who have developed ED coincident to practicing PE would be more inclined to blame the PE than their own body or lifestyle.
As far as I am aware, there really is just about zero real data available on the tissue changes that accompany long-term PE on either a microscopic or molecular level. Some data exists regarding the changes that connective tissue undergoes in response to long-term stretching and physical therapy, and in some cases this might reasonably be extrapolated to what happens in the ligaments and tunica with PE. In my opinion, attempts to extrapolate observations that have been made regarding changes that skeletal muscle undergoes in response to resistance training are not justified by any real data.
For all the talk about micro-tears, mitosis, smooth muscle recruitment and hyperplasia, thickening of the tunica, and/or thinning of the tunica I don't think anyone really knows what is happening during the remodeling that occurs with PE. This information would minimally require tissue samples taken for light and electron microscopy (think penis biopsy) obtained from volunteers sequentially over time as they undertake PE. To my knowledge, nothing like that has ever been done, nor do I think guys would be lining up to volunteer.
The incidence of chronic health problems that increase the likelihood of ED have also been on the rise, including more wide-spread use of the more dangerous recreational drugs, diabetes, obesity and cardiovascular disease. I suspect many who have developed ED coincident to practicing PE would be more inclined to blame the PE than their own body or lifestyle.
As far as I am aware, there really is just about zero real data available on the tissue changes that accompany long-term PE on either a microscopic or molecular level. Some data exists regarding the changes that connective tissue undergoes in response to long-term stretching and physical therapy, and in some cases this might reasonably be extrapolated to what happens in the ligaments and tunica with PE. In my opinion, attempts to extrapolate observations that have been made regarding changes that skeletal muscle undergoes in response to resistance training are not justified by any real data.
For all the talk about micro-tears, mitosis, smooth muscle recruitment and hyperplasia, thickening of the tunica, and/or thinning of the tunica I don't think anyone really knows what is happening during the remodeling that occurs with PE. This information would minimally require tissue samples taken for light and electron microscopy (think penis biopsy) obtained from volunteers sequentially over time as they undertake PE. To my knowledge, nothing like that has ever been done, nor do I think guys would be lining up to volunteer.
At the least it may be good just to see a urologist and do a complete physical before starting a routine with PE. I wonder if those who have the "mysterious" injuries for no reason would of been able to prevent it by having a good physical exam for weak tissue's, poor circulation, nerve damage that would predispose you to a a freak injury, or set you up for long term issue's of ED, or venous leak. Not sure if it would matter. But at least that would be a start. Kind of the same thing you get a physical before starting any excercise program.
I'm sure there are trolls, liars, AND guys who get injured. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which. But I came to the conclusion that PE works (before proving it to myself) based on the fact that so many guys post about it, over periods of years, with absolutely nothing to gain. Just because some guys earn money selling PE products and services doesn't mean everyone is lying. It just doesn't make sense. Likewise, just because some people gain by discrediting PE is no reason to doubt guys who have posted for years both post and pre-injury. That doesn't make sense either. Some guys got injured doing something stupid like erect jelqing, and some guys get injured without knowing what they did wrong. Maybe it would have happened another time even without PE, maybe not. Who knows. It's a small but real risk. But it can be minimized by proceeding with care.Johndoe said:
You can't, really. For example, in a thread on thunders on soft glans, someone posted a link to a discussion by the experts. Urologists who spent years understanding penile anatomy. One guy, who actually fixed some young guys with ED/soft glans due to "trauma" via surgery with and without ligation, made a quote I didn't forget. He said in the success cases even he didn't know if it was due to psychological components, increased inflow, or decreased outflow! And he did the surgery, lol. So if these guys can't figure it out, no way in hell we're going toJohndoe said:
Proceed slowly and with care, and watch your PIs. It's the best you can do.
This sounds like very sound advice, and I think Big Al even recommended it in a warning post somewhere. I just have my serious doubts about the practicality of it. First, you'll probably have to pay for it, and I'm sure it's damn expensive, at least for the kind of diagnostics that could pinpoint any defects of this nature. Nobody is going to get an insurance payment because they want to do PE, lol. Second, in a lot of injury cases, the experts can't even figure out exactly what's wrong. Really, no sh*t. If they can't tell post-injury, they sure as hell aren't going to see anything pre-injury.
If they can't tell something as obvious as an injury, then what is thier purpose? Whats there's expertise then? Nothing? With the penis (the most crucial organ on a males body) they just have no clue? They fix broken and curved penises. They can do that ... but thier not capable of detecting most injuries that could potentially leave a man forever impotent? Urologist are specialist, and some of the most analytical type dr's you'll ever meet. I'm sure there's bad one's just like in every profession. It's just hard to beleive that on a large scale they are that incompotent.
Redbear, yes more research is needed. Please check out the studies I posted, they raise interesting questions regarding possible consequences of plastic deformation of the tunica.
Flex, you are right, I don't see how a pre-examination would work. Doctors diagnose based on symptoms, if you report none, what is he going to do?
I did read the two studies. The one on the microscopic findings accompanying Peyronie's Disease I was familiar with.
The study regarding microscopic changes in rat penises with aging isn't anything too new. I don't have the citations at hand, but there is human data on penile changes accompanying aging that show the same (thinning of the Tunica, loss of elastic fibers, loss of smooth muscle).
But data regarding age-related changes in normal penile tissue, and changes observed in a disease state like Peyronie's really don't tell us anything about what changes might be induced over time by PE.
I think it is reasonable to assume that deformation of the penis over time through PE must necessarily involve some remodeling of the Tunica Albuginea. It seems to me that your concern is that whatever change this remodeling entails could potentially interfere with the veno-occlusive mechanism that is required for erection.
I think it is a reasonable concern, but in the absence of any real data we are pretty much limited to conjecture.
I think so too, so what data DO we have to deal with, from the hundreds of thousands of posts on PE forums? Here's just a few things off the top of my head:
1. As far as I know, out of all the guys who claimed injury NOT counting guys who admittedly did something wrong or stupid (like erect jelqing), I have only seen one single instance of a guy who seems to have been legitimately diagnosed with venous leak (deeppurple9 on Thunders). That case is indeed scary, but very rare. As stated in the WARNING to newbies, it seems reasonable to think this might have occurred because of an underlying or pre-existing condition.
2. Soft glans possibly induced by PE? Out of 200 guys polled on Thunders, 13% think it occurred after PE. Note that 50+ percent considered their glans "soft," either pre or post PE. Since this symptom shows up from time to time, it's a good thing to monitor before you're starting. If you notice any change in this regard, stop whatever activity you're doing, and if you resume, start by adding 1 exercise at a time to try and determine the cause. A few guys claim to have recovered from this by laying off PE.
3. Firm flaccid. Strange entity and seemingly hard to diagnose/treat even by experts. Most guys with this are not impotent, some report decreased EQ. Not terribly common, but it happens. Pay careful attention to your flaccid state, along with your other PIs.
4. The vast majority of PE induced ED is temporary, from "overtraining." Could be days, could be weeks. Could even occur if you didn't feel you were going over your threshold. But don't panic if it occurs. That's the worst thing you can do. That's a guaranteed way of making the condition last. As soon as you start to get erect, the adrenalin rush will kill it.
