Is the West in decline

[Johnny D]

So this comes back around, full circle, to the OP. To which I'll answer "yes" and include my first response in this discussion

Orban and other recent authoritarian-leaning leaders seem to have a public appeal (or at least a greater tolerance) that stems from a neo-nationalist, and some other "populist", rhetoric. Some strong surge of ethnocentric and other cultural superialism that's grown over that last decade or so.

 

[CUSP82]

No that is not clear at all. Let's go to your buddy Khalil; you're trying to make his detainment a free speech thing which it's not. The rules of his visa was that he could remain here but he wasn't really allowed to start trouble. Stirring up anti Jewish sentiment, passing out anti Jewish flyers, helping to make it difficult for Jewish students to go to class; are you actually defending that? That's what you want in this country? Now if he was a citizen than we couldn't do much about it but he was on a visa and they have restrictions.

As for due process I don't mind that at all, if they qualify. There are quite a few who deserve expedited deportation and those that qualify for that should get just that but let's not get our panties in a knot if a mistake happens because they will but the process should not stop

 

[CUSP82]

Got it. So it's pretty clear now that you're very comfortable violating and denying constitutional rights like the first and fifth amendments, provided you don't like that person. So just remember what I've said in the past. If you're okay with those decisions under this administration, you don't get to complain and object in the future when another administration does the same. If the Constitution can be waived to suit your whims and needs, then it can be waived to suit anyone else's as well.

Remember when Obama droned the American overseas ( I forget the country); didn't hear anyone making a stink over his due process.

 

[not2big]

Due process is only a right of American citizens. If they are illegals, then they don’t have those rights and will be immediately deported.
You guys are trying to defend the indefensible. It’s astonishing.

Someone needs to read the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution which state that no-one can be deprived of life liberty or property without fair legal proceedings. yes illegal immigrents in the U.S. are entitled to due process rights, even if those rights are not as extensive as those of citizens. While the government can deport undocumented immigrants, they must be given a fair hearing before a judge to explain why they should be allowed to remain in the country

 

[Ccb]

Someone needs to read the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution which state that no-one can be deprived of life liberty or property without fair legal proceedings. yes illegal immigrents in the U.S. are entitled to due process rights, even if those rights are not as extensive as those of citizens. While the government can deport undocumented immigrants, they must be given a fair hearing before a judge to explain why they should be allowed to remain in the country

I’m curious, do people that are here illegally AND designated as terrorists and/or part of a terrorist organization have the same rights as citizens? Do terrorists deserve any rights?

 

[Ccb]

It's you who moved the goal post. You went from "any country" and "materials, parts, and supplies" to "enemies" and "critical only". You never once said that you're backing off the original claim that the US should be the provider of the world's goods and not dependent on any country, and changing your stance to critical goods only and limited to allies.

If you're narrowing your argument to this, I think that's a fair discussion to have. I also think that it puts a huge onus on us to define what's critical and then to figure out how much of those critical goods we're even capable of providing. I think there's a lot to discuss in that debate, including the need to have amicable international relationships that don't put the supply chain in jeopardy, but I'll give you that it's worthy of consideration. "FULL STOP" is not convincing to me, though. Just because you said so, doesn't make it so. It's far more complicated.

I provided plenty of information on the topic of comparative advantage and each country's capabilities and capacity. All the same applies even to critical goods. I refute the critical goods argument off the cuff with the same rationale - not only do we lack the capability and capacity, our total cost of inputs (especially labor) just make it economically unsustainable. Prices will go up considerably.

OK. You say, "of course" but that hasn't been clear in the tariffs discussion. Quoting from Trump: "I always say 'tariffs' is the most beautiful word to me in the dictionary. Because tariffs are going to make us rich as hell. It's going to bring our country's businesses back that left us." So you part ways with Trump on that point, which is good to know. We can debate how effective tariffs are as a tool toward the goal of free trade but I think that's really of lesser importance. Ultimately, free trade agreements are to everyone's benefit and we can definitely agree on that.


I'm not defending him but he's been convicted of nothing.

That's patently false. Two documents filed in court have alleged that he is, yet they've never been substantiated, (In fact, the 2 documents contradict each other). What's known is that the allegation stemmed from double based on the word of a detective who was later deemed untrustworthy by the State's Attorney. In the US, we don't decide someone's fate on allegations - we have due process.

I do not. I do not defend it one bit and never implied that I do. What I defend is everyone's Constitutional rights. Even people I disagree with. Even people whom I believe probably broke the law.

Doesn't matter when the right to stay was granted. It can't be rescinded without due process and that's what I'm arguing. Like the person or not, their rights have to be respected. That's how our constitution and rule of law works.

Well that's convenient. We just put people on a plane, send them to another country, and then say, "Well... You're in another country now so sorry you don't have rights anymore." Given the fact that legal citizens and illegal foreigners are afforded the same rights to due process, what's to stop the government from forcibly sending a US citizen to another country where they suddenly lose their rights to due process?

You seem like a thoughtful guy and I’m sure we want the same things for our country, at least I hope you do.
We just disagree on how to achieve those results. We’ve been doing the same thing for 50 years and everything is getting worse.
I feel like these changes that are happening will provide this younger generation with a chance at the American dream once again.
Let’s revisit this post in a year and see where we are at.

 

[Johnny D]

No that is not clear at all. Let's go to your buddy Khalil; you're trying to make his detainment a free speech thing which it's not. The rules of his visa was that he could remain here but he wasn't really allowed to start trouble.

It's not quite that simple. Green card status is probationary, yes, but "start trouble" isn't really disallowed. There are specific actions required.

Stirring up anti Jewish sentiment, passing out anti Jewish flyers,

Can't deport for that.

helping to make it difficult for Jewish students to go to class; are you actually defending that?

Possible cause and depending on his actions, I may not defend it.

That's what you want in this country?

I'm totally fine with people speaking their mind, even if I disagree with their beliefs. But certain speech is limited, too (inciting violence, etc).

Are you aware that nearly 2,000 people have lost their student Visa with no explanation why? Are you familia with the Petrova case? It's well known that she spoke out against Russias invasion of Ukraine. She's now being detained because it's been claimed by DHS that she didn't properly declare the biology samples she was bringing in for her studies (something like a $500 fine, usually) and she doesn't get to contest it. Someone said that's what happened and now she sits in ICE detention. Again... nearly 2,000 student visas. Is THAT what we want in this country?

Now if he was a citizen than we couldn't do much about it but he was on a visa and they have restrictions.

Yep. Subject to due process, which he was denied. Just like Garcia, it's not up to Trump or DHS or ICE or any such agency to judge and determine whether they're guilty. The President and his merry men don't have the authority to convict. This is where it's all very dangerous. You're OK with denying people their right due process and simply deport them because you believe they must be guilty. The framers of the Constitution saw the dangers of this and prescribed everybody the right to have their day in court. You're willing to toss all of that out because you've decided those men are guilty. And, like I said, if you're ok with this administration tossing aside the Constitution to suit their whims and desires, then you have no business complaining when the next one does the same. I prefer a country that respects all the rights provided in our Constitution and am very concerned about the state of things when others think it's just optional. It's a very slippery slope.

As for due process I don't mind that at all, if they qualify.

And you believe that Garcia and Khalil don't have a right to due process, because...?

There are quite a few who deserve expedited deportation and those that qualify for that should get just that but let's not get our panties in a knot if a mistake happens because they will but the process should not stop

Again... Are you defending the deportation or are you saying it was an administrative mistake that unfortunately can't be fixed now?

Remember when Obama droned the American overseas ( I forget the country); didn't hear anyone making a stink over his due process.

Well you should have heard me at the time. While some would argue that we were at war with them at the time, etc... I believe he did not have the Constitutional authority and that he illegally ordered the assassination of a US citizen.

I’m curious, do people that are here illegally AND designated as terrorists and/or part of a terrorist organization have the same rights as citizens? Do terrorists deserve any rights?

Depends what you mean by "designated". Just because an allegation was made, does not make it so. This is what due process is for. If someone at some agency simply says that so-and-so is a member of a terrorist organization, they aren't automatically designated as such. Imagine the implications if that's how it worked. People have a right to defend themselves against those allegations.
(Of course there's another discussion to be had here around whether an organization is a terrorist organization simply because the President says it is, but that's not your question and a separate debate)

 

[Johnny D]

You seem like a thoughtful guy and I’m sure we want the same things for our country, at least I hope you do.
We just disagree on how to achieve those results. We’ve been doing the same thing for 50 years and everything is getting worse.
I feel like these changes that are happening will provide this younger generation with a chance at the American dream once again.
Let’s revisit this post in a year and see where we are at.

I think that's often the case. Though I am an adherent of the Constitution, think it's a very well-crafted set of laws, and believe it's crucial that all are accountable to it. Whereas there appear to be parts of it (e.g. only US citizens are afforded due process) that you're not sold on. Nevertheless, I suspect that there are probably many objectives we both would agree on and, as is often the case, believe in a different method of obtaining them.

I don't see the state of things through the same lens as you. Over the past 50 years the US has led the world in production and prosperity, so I'm not really sure what's gettin worse. More people are living at a much higher standard now than their parents and grandparents were. There are lower rates of poverty. Many have more opportunity for wealth and security now than we had 50 years ago. I'm not sure what's getting worse and I think that the American dream is just as within reach now, if not more so, than then.

For sure will be very interesting to revisit a year from now.

 

[not2big]

Pryor to being judged (not designated outside of a court proceeding), terrorists have limited rights, including the right to a fair hearing in a court of law prior to being deported.

 

[Ccb]

Pryor to being judged (not designated outside of a court proceeding), terrorists have limited rights, including the right to a fair hearing in a court of law prior to being deported.

So millions of illegals can come in without process, lots of them criminals and designated terrorists, within a very short period of time. But we must give every one of them due process on deportation? How long will that take, 100 years? Do you see the dilemma? How do you reconcile this?
For national security threats like terrorists, military is the only way to bypass liberal activist judges. Tribunals are on the horizon.

 

[Ccb]

I think that's often the case. Though I am an adherent of the Constitution, think it's a very well-crafted set of laws, and believe it's crucial that all are accountable to it. Whereas there appear to be parts of it (e.g. only US citizens are afforded due process) that you're not sold on. Nevertheless, I suspect that there are probably many objectives we both would agree on and, as is often the case, believe in a different method of obtaining them.

I don't see the state of things through the same lens as you. Over the past 50 years the US has led the world in production and prosperity, so I'm not really sure what's gettin worse. More people are living at a much higher standard now than their parents and grandparents were. There are lower rates of poverty. Many have more opportunity for wealth and security now than we had 50 years ago. I'm not sure what's getting worse and I think that the American dream is just as within reach now, if not more so, than then.

For sure will be very interesting to revisit a year from now.

Prosperity for the top 1%. The wage gap has never been more disparate. My kids need to make 4x what I make for the same house, land, etc. And I’m in the top 1%.
Fifty years ago the average American family could live well on one salary with a nice suburban home, cars, etc. Wives could be stay-at-home mothers, which was excellent for the next generation, and not be burdened with having to bring home extra pay to make ends meet. That dream is gone.
The wealthy have gotten more wealthy and the middle class has been decimated. That’s the biggest problem and what I hope is corrected in the next few years. The culmination of this progression will be the removal of the central banks. Inflation is the silent killer of the middle class. As long as we have fiat currency and an open-ended credit card, it will continue. When fiat dies and our currency has backing, presumably gold, prosperity for everyone will return.

 

[Ccb]

It's not quite that simple. Green card status is probationary, yes, but "start trouble" isn't really disallowed. There are specific actions required.

Can't deport for that.

Possible cause and depending on his actions, I may not defend it.

I'm totally fine with people speaking their mind, even if I disagree with their beliefs. But certain speech is limited, too (inciting violence, etc).

Are you aware that nearly 2,000 people have lost their student Visa with no explanation why? Are you familia with the Petrova case? It's well known that she spoke out against Russias invasion of Ukraine. She's now being detained because it's been claimed by DHS that she didn't properly declare the biology samples she was bringing in for her studies (something like a $500 fine, usually) and she doesn't get to contest it. Someone said that's what happened and now she sits in ICE detention. Again... nearly 2,000 student visas. Is THAT what we want in this country?

Yep. Subject to due process, which he was denied. Just like Garcia, it's not up to Trump or DHS or ICE or any such agency to judge and determine whether they're guilty. The President and his merry men don't have the authority to convict. This is where it's all very dangerous. You're OK with denying people their right due process and simply deport them because you believe they must be guilty. The framers of the Constitution saw the dangers of this and prescribed everybody the right to have their day in court. You're willing to toss all of that out because you've decided those men are guilty. And, like I said, if you're ok with this administration tossing aside the Constitution to suit their whims and desires, then you have no business complaining when the next one does the same. I prefer a country that respects all the rights provided in our Constitution and am very concerned about the state of things when others think it's just optional. It's a very slippery slope.

And you believe that Garcia and Khalil don't have a right to due process, because...?

Again... Are you defending the deportation or are you saying it was an administrative mistake that unfortunately can't be fixed now?

Well you should have heard me at the time. While some would argue that we were at war with them at the time, etc... I believe he did not have the Constitutional authority and that he illegally ordered the assassination of a US citizen.

Depends what you mean by "designated". Just because an allegation was made, does not make it so. This is what due process is for. If someone at some agency simply says that so-and-so is a member of a terrorist organization, they aren't automatically designated as such. Imagine the implications if that's how it worked. People have a right to defend themselves against those allegations.
(Of course there's another discussion to be had here around whether an organization is a terrorist organization simply because the President says it is, but that's not your question and a separate debate)

How do you feel about J6 detainees? Do you think they were given due process?

 

[not2big]

So millions of illegals can come in without process, lots of them criminals and designated terrorists, within a very short period of time. But we must give every one of them due process on deportation? How long will that take, 100 years? Do you see the dilemma? How do you reconcile this?
For national security threats like terrorists, military is the only way to bypass liberal activist judges. Tribunals are on the horizon.

The number of undocumented immigrants is closer to 12 million. Most are not Criminals and the crime rate among illegals is lower than the crime rate of citizens. Just because some one unilaterally claims someone is a terrorist, doesn’t make them a terrorist. The Constitution requires due process which is why liberal judges follow the rule of law and the Constitution. If you prefer the military to enforce the laws in violation of the Constitution, you might want to consider visiting Cuba or Russia to see how it feels. If Trump stays in office long enough, you may have to experience the military deporting you to El Salvador If you oppose any of his policies.

 

[Johnny D]

How do you feel about J6 detainees? Do you think they were given due process?

My understanding is this: A judge heard evidence and determined who should be detained without bail, detained pending bail, or not detained at all. Is that not the truth?

Whereas a judge didn't make that determination with Garcia. The Executive branch of the government did.

One is an example of due process. The other is not.

 

[Johnny D]

Prosperity for the top 1%. The wage gap has never been more disparate. My kids need to make 4x what I make for the same house, land, etc. And I’m in the top 1%.
Fifty years ago the average American family could live well on one salary with a nice suburban home, cars, etc. Wives could be stay-at-home mothers, which was excellent for the next generation, and not be burdened with having to bring home extra pay to make ends meet. That dream is gone.
The wealthy have gotten more wealthy and the middle class has been decimated. That’s the biggest problem and what I hope is corrected in the next few years. The culmination of this progression will be the removal of the central banks. Inflation is the silent killer of the middle class. As long as we have fiat currency and an open-ended credit card, it will continue. When fiat dies and our currency has backing, presumably gold, prosperity for everyone will return.

I get that many feel that way but the statistics don't support the claim. Inflation adjusted income is WAY up in 50 years. The average person now lives at the standard that the upper 20% did 50 years ago. A house and a car have far more innovations than and offerings than they did 50 years ago. I'm 57 and when I was 7, it was not standard to have AC, dishwashers, power this and that, etc... People actually can afford the house my parents owned, they just don't want to live in it. Standards and expectations are way higher now. Last time I looked at the numbers, the cost per square foot of a home today is considerably less in today's dollars then it was 50 years ago. The number of hours required to work to pay that rate is far less, too.

 

[Ccb]

The number of undocumented immigrants is closer to 12 million. Most are not Criminals and the crime rate among illegals is lower than the crime rate of citizens. Just because some one unilaterally claims someone is a terrorist, doesn’t make them a terrorist. The Constitution requires due process which is why liberal judges follow the rule of law and the Constitution. If you prefer the military to enforce the laws in violation of the Constitution, you might want to consider visiting Cuba or Russia to see how it feels. If Trump stays in office long enough, you may have to experience the military deporting you to El Salvador If you oppose any of his policies.

You could say 100% of illegal immigrants are criminals, they did break our laws. So there crime rate is MUCH higher than US citizens.
But I’m not talking about the average Mexican crossing the border. I’m talking about the cartel, gang members, terrorists that have come into this country. We have no idea how many but we know it’s a lot.
Given the history, the designation of terrorist applied to MS-13, Tren de Aragua, the Mexican cartel, etc is worthy and accurate, don’t you think?
And if they are designated terrorists, it’s a military issue for national security.

 

[Ccb]

I get that many feel that way but the statistics don't support the claim. Inflation adjusted income is WAY up in 50 years. The average person now lives at the standard that the upper 20% did 50 years ago. A house and a car have far more innovations than and offerings than they did 50 years ago. I'm 57 and when I was 7, it was not standard to have AC, dishwashers, power this and that, etc... People actually can afford the house my parents owned, they just don't want to live in it. Standards and expectations are way higher now. Last time I looked at the numbers, the cost per square foot of a home today is considerably less in today's dollars then it was 50 years ago. The number of hours required to work to pay that rate is far less, too.

But families can hardly live off one salary anymore. That was the standard.
Our experiences and perceptions of the middle class are very much different. I see many hard working families struggle financially when they shouldn’t be. The monetary system is designed to keep everyone enslaved and never get ahead.

 

[Johnny D]

But families can hardly live off one salary anymore. That was the standard.

They could, though, if the expectation was what it was 50 years ago. We had one car, one TV, a tiny house with no AC. You can still live that way on one salary very easily. But we don't.

Our experiences and perceptions of the middle class are very much different. I see many hard working families struggle financially when they shouldn’t be.

Keeping up with the Joneses?

The 30-somethings that I know who are in the same social strata that I was in at that age - same education and job, etc - are living at a much higher standard than I was able to live at when I was their age.

The monetary system is designed to keep everyone enslaved and never get ahead.

No argument from me!

 

[Johnny D]

Given the history, the designation of terrorist applied to MS-13, Tren de Aragua, the Mexican cartel, etc is worthy and accurate, don’t you think?

I don't, but I know that was for N2B

 

[Ccb]

I don't, but I know that was for N2B

That’s interesting. What is your standard for being a terrorist then?