Is the West in decline

[Pegasus]

So as an ideal as a value system even the geographical countries within it their economies etc.

 

[Pegasus]

Some question if Orban's Hungary is a democracy, Would like to hear members thought .
What of India or Turkey ?

 

[4Samson]

I would say USA is clearly on the decline. Especially respect wise and how the rest of the world views them and their values. There have always been many countries that do not like/hate America, traditionally though most of those countries would be considered "unfriendly" or even "enemies" which in the end who cares right? Your enemies are supposed to hate you.

However, now thanks to Trump's words and actions, all your closest allies and friendliest partners hate and think sh*t of USA (politically, not specifically the average American citizen themselves). I am not American, and I was one of the few who actually was not anti-Trump (I was not pro trump either just not quick to judge like most others). In less than 1 month of presidency, Trump has turned America into one of the least respected and most poorly thought of countries in the world. For example, more countries publicly condemned USA's plans for Gaza than condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine. BTW my opinion still stands even if the Gaza issue did not exist, that is only an example, I am referring to basically EVERYTHING your president says and does.

Full disclosure, I am from an "American ally" country that Trump has publicly threatened, among other things, to invade/conquer. The fact that statement does not tell you definitively what country I am from demonstrates just how ridiculous USA has become under Trump. He is your leader, his words are a direct reflection of your country whether you like/voted for Trump or not.

Congratulations, Israel probably likes you more now Americans, EVERY OTHER country in the world (your allies) now think negatively and complete sh*t of your country.

Am I allowed to say all that? I have wanted to create a thread about this for a couple weeks now but always decide against it before I clicked post. Not sure how all the Americans here will take it but it is simply the truth.

 

[CUSP82]

The West, or portions thereof are not only slipping into decline but getting closer to autocracy. In Germany if I curse you out to your face then that's okay but if I curse you out on social media I can go to jail or at the very least be fined. Same in many other European countries. Now who decides who said something bad enough to e fined or jailed? Why the government of course. Sounds like Russia or Chine to me.

 

[Pegasus]

Actually Cusp I thonk you are talking about hate speech which we have in Australia .
The courts decide on ehat constitutes hate speech .
Btw you have hate speech on the books in the US but the case law shows you can burn a cross on someones lawn while dressed kkk style .
Other countries not so much .
In Australia at least the bar is high and has only been made a few times but it does exist as a real thing.

 

[CUSP82]

No in many European countries it's not just hate speech that get's the hook; even things anti government or maybe out of mainstream science gets nailed. You're not at all worried that the government gets control of speech and if they deem it improper for whatever reason off you go like in Russia?

 

[Pegasus]

I don't know the situation in each individual euro country .
Some euro countries worry me like Hungary where Orban seems in the process of moving it away from democracy .
Hmm not mainstream science covers a wide ground including straight disinformation .
Democracy is supposed to tolerate dissent within reason ,again things anti gov covers a wide ground .

 

[CUSP82]

What exactly is disinformation and who decides what is or is not disinformation?

 

[Pegasus]

Falsehood meant to decieve especially proponganda . You could go to the dictionary Cusp .

Given how vague you are Cusp you seem intent on clarify terms .

Can we get back on thread

 

[CUSP82]

So your position is that increasing government censorship or control has no effect on the West possibly in decline? Look my friend without free speech, and I mean free there is nothing that separates west from east.When governments, any government decides what can or cannot be said, what is real or misinformation we are screwed. Tell me what's the difference between what the Russian government allows as information and what the German government allows? Oh the Russians must be bad because they are Russians but the Germans are good. They're both governments telling you what to believe. It's all propaganda but ours is good they'res is bad because we don't like them

 

[not2big]

Disinformation occurs when you see things with your own eyes such as people attacking the Capitol during a constitutionally prescribed proceeding and physically beating law enforcement officers and who are subsequently convicted of crimes in a court of law and then subsequently called patriots. Or, seeing Russia attacking the capital of Ukraine and subsequently having Russia called the victim. Or, saying you are firing people for cause when their records actually show thy have won awards for performing their jobs in an exemplary way.

 

[Pegasus]

Just at this point the democracy in western europe is looking pretty solid to me . Their are other parts of the world I am more concerned about .

Your supposed question between the Rus and Germans is so strange it doesn't bare further comment . Might I suggest you have been listening to disinfo .

Any comment on Orban ?

 

[Johnny D]

Orban and other recent authoritarian-leaning leaders seem to have a public appeal (or at least a greater tolerance) that stems from a neo-nationalist, and some other "populist", rhetoric. Some strong surge of ethnocentric and other cultural superialism that's grown over that last decade or so.

 

[Pegasus]

Yes you are correct and similar seem to be poping up in many western nations . There are significant parties in many countries and a few seem to be activly moving to autocracy .

Anone got specific comment about Turkey or India ?

 

[not2big]

Let’s see how the AfD does in today’s German election. The results could predict the move to the right in Europe.

 

[Pegasus]

It concerns me that autocratic countries are banding together and supporting each other .

 

[not2big]

Are you referring to the U.S. and Russia?

 

[Pegasus]

It concerns me that autocratic countries are banding together and supporting each other.

I didn;t specifically mention them not2big.

I will mention Russia ,Iran and North Korea . You could throw in a few more .

 

[CUSP82]

Disinformation occurs when you see things with your own eyes such as people attacking the Capitol during a constitutionally prescribed proceeding and physically beating law enforcement officers and who are subsequently convicted of crimes in a court of law and then subsequently called patriots. Or, seeing Russia attacking the capital of Ukraine and subsequently having Russia called the victim. Or, saying you are firing people for cause when their records actually show thy have won awards for performing their jobs in an exemplary way.

So you need a government to tell you that? Are individuals too stupid to see things and figure them out for themselves? So you want a nanny state?

 

[Pegasus]

Some people seem to need it many others just like less useless noise.