FML... sexless marriage

[CUSP82]

I just want to live happily ever after every now and then!

 

[TTBB]

I am not judging the OP, and i agree his wife was also avoiding..
I do have compassion for the situation .. i know emotions involved... both parties are victims and both parties are not.
I do get how easy it is to get stuck in a habit of relationship .. to become complacent... to avoid dealing with things...but cheating is never the answer and it never makes things better.. its a selfish act and is destructive to humans and relationships...human nature or not its still destructive.

I am also sorry you are skeptical about relationship counseling .. I do think its a handy tool... even if the result is the couple doesn't stay together..it provides a safe environment for them to tackle the issues even if it leads them down a path of divorce it still means the counseling worked because that is the path the relationship was heading down already, but now the parties involved, know how each other feel and what their hopes were and it was communicated it in away that both parties can understand having a third party trained in the area of relationship means there are far less mis-communications and tempers/emotional responses are able to be dealt with constructively allowing the real issues to be talked about.. it can provide closure and people walk away from their marriages knowing they tried to fix things ... if the marriage is healed then that too is a positive.

Knowing your marriage sucks or that you made things worse, does help because it allows you to see all the cards more clearly.. No they can't go back and change the situation .. but he can see where things are at now... he can choose to make the situation more messy and more complicated to continue ignoring and allowing it to snowball until he is in a destructive situation or he can choose to adjust his normal behavior and his part in the situation .. i say he, because he is the one who is on the forum not his wife... a person can only control their own actions and responses and a person can only influence another .. so i can't say she needs to change her approach to things because that is something he needs to influence.
People don't have control over their emotions but they do have control over how they respond to the emotion... of course sometimes this takes more practice and effort then other times.

 

[wind chill]

I just want to live happily ever after every now and then!

lol

 

[johnsonrod]

I can relate to MyApocolypse and his situation. I am married for 14 years. During dating, we were great friends and really loved each other. I kept my virginity until marriage. Being young and clueless about life and relationships I overlooked some glaring problems. Like during our wedding night she said, "I am really tired, I would like to just go to sleep now” I said, "This is our wedding night, we are supposed to have sex” This event foreshadowed the rest of the marriage. In the evening, I would snuggle up to her, she would push me away and 95% of the time refuses sexual initiation. We did have children, and I chalked her refusal from being exhausted raising children. We sought some counseling, but didn't have resolution. I felt very alone, rejected, invalidated as a man. I harbored resentments and chose a wrong path and made some bad decisions. After the children started growing up, in my quest for intimacy. At the time, I thought that sex was love and intimacy and began to secretly look at pornography. With the Internet, I spent hours fantasizing what it would be like to be in a close intimate and erotic relationship with a woman. During this time, my career started to take off and I traveled much between 1999 and 2005. During this time away, I chose to cheat on my wife with a brief fling. I did this on average one or two times per year for a brief encounter of infidelity. I would feel huge guilt and shame and vow never to do this again. As the same broken relationship issues we in play, I repeated my infidelity.

Four years ago, the weight of the shame was burdening me and I chose to confess this to her. My confession of sexual betrayal caused even more damage to our relationship. We chose to seek counseling again. We are not divorced, but live separated in the same house. We want to keep a grounded safe place and support for the children. During this time, I am remaining abstinent from masturbation and sex. I am learning to be OK with myself without sex and abstaining from masturbation and pornography has been the most difficult task in my whole life.

Unfortunately, having committed adultery places me in a "one down" position and I get the butt end of the stick often. As I am gaining personal health, I am learning about my co-dependence to her. She is very emotionally abusive towards me and I am learning to set boundaries for myself and "red light" her bad behavior and "green light" her good behavior. I am going through an amends process where I empathetically disclose my offenses to her and listen to her hurts. This is a first step for her personal healing and I owe this to her.

I do not have hope for any restored relationship and the longer we work through the issues, I feel that I will not be with her in the long run. Although I did wrong to her, she also did grave harm through the beginning of our marriage and continues to be offensively harm me and the family. My hope is that she will find courage to continue her individual counseling and recovery.

My hope is that we will be able to adjust in this separation and ultimately divorce where she can be independent and operate independently without me. The children are growing and will be in a different place a few years from now. My ultimate hope is to live a positive and happy life without abuse and assault. I have good non-sexual relationships with friends and enjoy the positive support from these. I do miss being sexually intimate, but will not let my sexuality drive my life as it has cause great harm.

It is easy to judge my situation or MyApocolypse with statements like: "Well just divorce her". You cannot understand the crazy dynamics unless you have lived it. In hindsight, I wish I had experienced more relationships, dating, and sex before marriage so I could make a good solid decision about the type of person that I wanted to share a relationship with.

I chalk this up to life learning.... may there be a new happier chapter in the future. I guess this is up to me and my future choices..

 

[islander]

I can relate to MyApocolypse and his situation. I am married for 14 years. During dating, we were great friends and really loved each other......
I chalk this up to life learning.... may there be a new happier chapter in the future. I guess this is up to me and my future choices..

Wow. I wish I could get out what I am thinking in my head! Im impressed. Not necessarily for the torture you now endure on purpose per say but the fact you were able to express it so well. The sad thing is that when we dont know enough before diving in and it catches up to us, we dont have the ability to break away for reasons that seem pure but really is just more suffering.

I think every person, who is capable and functioning in society, can learn how to do the groceries, pump their gas, make schedules for the children, cook, clean, work, pay bills, etc... There really are sufficient hours in the day to really run life and a full house hold. If you drink, smoke or do other things that waste your time then yea there is no enough time. Hopefully the children are of an age where they can see your relationship and learn from it rather than think its acceptable. We tend to follow the trend of what we see and many times dont even know we do it.

Good luck to you. Your disclosure was beautiful to read. Simply because a man out there in the world can touch on such an awful subject matter so personally.

 

[dsmall]

Stuff.

Wow. Unbelievable post. My first marriage (10 years-15 year relationship) was also very unhappy, and we married young, so I certainly relate to many parts of your story. Really, this was one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum. Good luck with your struggle. I did remarry to a wonderful woman and have been happily married to her for ten years; there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Titty--I am also sorry you are skeptical about relationship counseling .. I do think its a handy tool... even if the result is the couple doesn't stay together..it provides a safe environment for them to tackle the issues even if it leads them down a path of divorce it still means the counseling worked because that is the path the relationship was heading down already, but now the parties involved, know how each other feel and what their hopes were and it was communicated it in away that both parties can understand having a third party trained in the area of relationship means there are far less mis-communications and tempers/emotional responses are able to be dealt with constructively allowing the real issues to be talked about.. it can provide closure and people walk away from their marriages knowing they tried to fix things ... if the marriage is healed then that too is a positive.

First of all, I love the dialogue with you and hearing your point of view. I agree that is is a handy tool to resolve issues so that both parties can basically move on. Usually, by the time the parties get there, the chance of a happy marriage is long gone. There is some evidence that it can "save" some marriages in the sense that no divorce results, but again, success is defined as no divorce, rather than happiness. And that is the problem with doing peer review of marriage counseling. It is very difficult to define when counseling is a success and otherwise. The only talk therapy with any real peer review statistics behind it is CBT, which I am a big fan of on an individual basis. There is not a lot of data that it works well with couples in the sense that the relationship improves. In fact, it can have the opposite effect as one party starts changing behavior which was an integral part of the unhealthy relationship dynamic. It essentially puts a therapist in a situation where they have to chose between the individual patient's health, or saving the relationship.

As an aside, this has been a truly enjoyable thread with great commentary.

 

[dsmall]

I agree with virtually all of what dsmall wrote. One thing to remember is that nobody really has much control over their emotions and frame of mind most of the time. Unhappy, conflicted people may do things that they know -- rationally speaking and in a perfect world -- they should handle differently. It is just human nature.

The drive to be truly happy -- somehow, at least part of the time -- is a very powerful force. I sympathize with everyone out there who is struggling in their relationships, and hoping/trying for better.

All true. And its chemical. Love affairs and new love also triggers strong hormonal changes like oxytocin that actually alters brain chemistry. The drive is even more powerful than the hunger some feel when faced with desirable food. It is a powerful evolutionary tool that drives the desire for human relationships. It's completely irrational.

 

[TTBB]

All true. And its chemical. Love affairs and new love also triggers strong hormonal changes like oxytocin that actually alters brain chemistry. The drive is even more powerful than the hunger some feel when faced with desirable food. It is a powerful evolutionary tool that drives the desire for human relationships. It's completely irrational.

the op should read this thread...something to think about.
https://www.pegym.com/forums/relationship-forum/18244-lust-love.html

 

[mwigw]

I am torn... The situation is like this. She is highly supportive. I find her attractive. I love her. We sleep in separate beds in separate rooms. During the past 12 years of marriage we have gone through maybe 7 boxes of condoms and have never had unprotected sex... I have never strayed during those 12 years.


I want more but I love her. I want more but she wants to annoy. I want more but I made a vow.


I have been doing PE on and off for 3 years and have seen great results in both stamina and physical size. Where do I go from here...


Just how the hell do you tell the woman that you love that you want out without hurting???

 

[Batwoman]

You cannot get out of a marriage without hurting the other person, period. If you are even considering divorce, you have to recognize that truth. The question is whether or not that hurt is worth it. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't -- only you can decide that. But if you still love her, I would strongly suggest getting some marriage counseling. Do it now. Don't put it off.

A 12-year marriage with no unprotected sex? Well, I guess that means that you have no children, which is a good thing if you are unhappy and thinking of leaving.

How did you end up in separate beds in separate rooms? Was it always this way?

It is hard to know what to tell you. My only real advice is this -- don't prolong this situation. Either get into counseling and start working to make your marriage better, or leave. Don't live a half life. If you had children in the house, it might be different -- sometimes people have to subsume their own desires and make major compromises in a marriage in order to provide a stable home for their children. But in your case, if it is just you and your wife, you owe it to yourself to do something before things get worse. With no kids, in my opinion the whole point of a marriage is to provide a happy life for both partners. If you don't have that, why bother?

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that you are not entirely unhappy, and that the comfort and convenience of an established marriage (flawed though it may be) appeals to you. You say your wife has many of the attributes one looks for in a wife -- attractive, supportive, etc. -- and that you love her. I'll bet your friends think you are a happily married. But inside, you clearly don't feel that way. Still, after re-reading your post, I get the feeling that you would really prefer to make your marriage work. So -- you should go get some marriage counseling. Yes, it will probably cause a scene when you approach your wife about it. But I think that is better than just being miserable in silence.

 

[dsmall]

I am torn... The situation is like this. She is highly supportive. I find her attractive. I love her. We sleep in separate beds in separate rooms. During the past 12 years of marriage we have gone through maybe 7 boxes of condoms and have never had unprotected sex... I have never strayed during those 12 years.


I want more but I love her. I want more but she wants to annoy. I want more but I made a vow.


I have been doing PE on and off for 3 years and have seen great results in both stamina and physical size. Where do I go from here...


Just how the hell do you tell the woman that you love that you want out without hurting???

You tell her that you love her, but want more intimacy. And you tell her that your choice is that you can either stay in a loveless marriage and seek intimacy outside the marriage; or end the loveless marriage and try and start over with someone new. But that continuing the current situation is untenable. And she will be hurt, but you are hurting right now as well. I don't know who will be hurting worse but 12 years of physical rejection by your wife adds up to a lot of pain. I guess you can continue living in torture in order to spare her some pain; but then she has the pain of living with someone who basically has a world of rage going at her at all times.

No matter what path you choose there will be immediate and deep pain. if you stay on the same path for the next 12 years, then nothing will change, but there will be 12 more years of longer lasting pain.

 

[MyApocalypse]

Bit of an update...

I talked with the mistress and we mutually decided it's over. In a sense I'm releaved that the burden of cheating is now gone, but I will miss her. I know it's fucked up to say, but she was an awesome women.

I'm going to try to make my marriage work. Granted she can never know I cheated, and it will probably haunt me, but it would devastate my wife. My wife told me she wanted to start havin sex again to save our marriage, she even bought a sexy nighty, but she still hasn't initiated anything. Maybe it's my fault, ive been kinda depressed lately and it probably shows. I attempted to initiate once but she was to tired...

-Dsmall thanks for the replies.

-johnsonrod, sorry to hear about your situation. Things in your post sounded very familiar, especially the no sex on my wedding night.

-titty, I'll read that link soon.

-Batwomen, you hit the nail on the head. Seriously...


This situation has been very stressful and emotional. Thanks for the guidance.
-MyApo

 

[BigRooster]

My friend I am kind of in the same situation. Like you, sex is a thing that doesn't happen very often in my marriage. Then again sometimes it'll happen three times a week. Everyday I am tempted to cross that line and cheat. In my line of work the majority of the people I am in contact with is women. Some of these women have come right out and have told me that they want to bed me. I blush tell them thankyou but I'm married.
I don't know if you have children but do you want to know what holds me back from crossing that line.
1. When I said I do. I said it for better and worse. Tim death do us part.
2. My wife. She's not perfect and neither am I. We all have things that we will never change in ourselves and in others but learn to grow with one another and accept things the way they are.
3. My children how could I destroy their lives because daddy went and spend a
moment of pleasure. With a woman who isn't their mother.
In marriage sex isn't everything it's one of the benefits. Schedules can put a damper on that one on one time. Try taking your wife out for a date. Do something different. I'm just letting you know what I think. If you don't want to hurt her and do want to work it out. Then do that. Work it out. I know people who have gone through divorce. Pretty sure their are a few on here who have too, and will tell you. Divorce isn't pretty.
Just my thoughts. I got to get to work b

 

[johnsonrod]

Thank you MyApocolypse,DSmall, and Islander for your thoughts.

I agree with Batwoman that counselling is a great resource. Many people get a negative view of counselling because they have wrong expectations. They expect their relationships to be better or have the their partner changed or their position validated. The reality is that we cannot change our partners. We can only change ourselves. For me, counselling has brought great personal growth and understanding to who I am as a person. It gives me an opportunity to learn and grow past my faults. Regardless of saving a relationship, it is a win-win. If I ultimately divorce, I am a better person and have the knowlege and tools to engage and build a new relationship.

I feel for all of you men in challenging relationships or ones where your partner withholds sex. MyApocolypes, you did a hugething by cutting the cord, however do recognize that the pattern may repeat if you don't get help and support for your core issues. We don't you what we don't know. Meaning that it sometimes is difficult to see the real issues and get the needed help. Additionally, it is not human nature to admit and accept the need for help. Especially for us guys who think we are strong and can do this stuff on our own.

Batwoman, thank you for the reality perspective about ending a relationship will be painful. This is true.

Bigrooster, I hear what you are saying about living in a sexless marriage and having woman around you that tempt and pursue. Your list of reasons for not straying is a huge reality check and reminder. However, as TTBB identified the bio-chemical response and drive to have sex is powerful and must not be underestimated.

Another part of my personal growth is getting some bigger balls (no pun intened ). My wife has her own trauma from growing up with an alcoholic father. Any situation that appears to be criticism or threatening, she becomes angry, verbally assaultive, slams doors, and then withdraws emotionally and socially. Over the years, I have grown weary this and avoid discussing important topics to avoid being hurt. I am addressing this co-dependence and actively engaging her (in a kind way) in discussing important items. When she errupts, I am now acting human and say "ouch that hurts" or "Did you really mean to say that" to remind her that I am human. I will ask her if she would like to discuss this in a respectful way and if she would like to come back after a timeout period to re-engage.

 

[Batwoman]

I know this is going to seem harsh, but I feel like I need to say it anyway.

One thing I have seen in several posts on this topic is the idea that in some marriages women "withhold" sex (on purpose) and that they could change and get more sexually interested in their partner/husband if they wanted to. That might be true of a small proportion of manipulative women, but I think that in most cases it is not true at all.

Like it or not, many women simply lose sexual interest in their long-term partners. This has happened to me twice in my life, and both times it was a source of great sorrow to me. I have written about this before. In neither case was losing interest in sex intentional or something that I wanted; it just happened over time. In both cases I went out of my way to try to rekindle my sexual feelings for the man in question, to no avail. Sex became a chore; one I managed (because I cared about my partner) but one that I did not enjoy very much. Yes, it is possible for a woman to get aroused and enjoy sex physically (at least somewhat, and even to orgasm) but sex can still feel like a chore, one that a woman can come to rather dread. It is possible to hide that dread.... but much easier to just avoid having sex.

When loss of interest in sex with a particular man is not intentional, it is not reversible. Based on my own experience, I think it is extremely naive to think that a married woman in a sexless marriage will ever get sexually interested in her husband again. Yes, she may be able to accommodate his needs better -- have sex with him more often -- but I don't think it is ever likely to be her idea. Well, unless she is trying to keep her marriage from failing.

If the rest of the marriage is going OK and the couple gets along, a relationship in which the wife provides sex to keep her husband content (and not because she desires him) may work for a couple. Indeed, I think there are an awful lot of marriages that operate that way. But the man has to get used to the idea that his wife/partner just doesn't really desire him sexually anymore, and that she is not going to magically change in the future. Accommodating that reality is tough, nobody ever wants it to be true. But sometimes it just is.

The last time I wrote about this, I got PMs from a couple of guys asking "Did you still love him after you stopped wanting to have sex with him?" If I am honest, the answer to that question is probably "no" in my case. Like him, respect him, feel affection for him, yes. But love? Not really, not the sort that we all hope we will have forever with someone. It is very sad when this happens in a marriage or a long-term relationship that you hoped would be wonderful and last forever that way.

There can be a lot of disappointment on both sides in a sexless marriage or relationship.

 

[dsmall]

I know this is going to seem harsh, but I feel like I need to say it anyway.

One thing I have seen in several posts on this topic is the idea that in some marriages women "withhold" sex (on purpose) and that they could change and get more sexually interested in their partner/husband if they wanted to. That might be true of a small proportion of manipulative women, but I think that in most cases it is not true at all.

Like it or not, many women simply lose sexual interest in their long-term partners. This has happened to me twice in my life, and both times it was a source of great sorrow to me. I have written about this before. In neither case was losing interest in sex intentional or something that I wanted; it just happened over time. In both cases I went out of my way to try to rekindle my sexual feelings for the man in question, to no avail. Sex became a chore; one I managed (because I cared about my partner) but one that I did not enjoy very much. Yes, it is possible for a woman to get aroused and enjoy sex physically (at least somewhat, and even to orgasm) but sex can still feel like a chore, one that a woman can come to rather dread. It is possible to hide that dread.... but much easier to just avoid having sex.

When loss of interest in sex with a particular man is not intentional, it is not reversible.

There can be a lot of disappointment on both sides in a sexless marriage or relationship.

The truth hurts but it's still true. Once it's gone, it's gone. You can't work it back; communicate it back; or will it back. Guys don't necessarily lose interest in sex in the abstract, and view it as a chore per se; but they definitely view it as simply fulfilling a biological urge. And the same is even more true with women. It's why marriages frequently become sexless after a woman has the children she wants to have.

I do wonder whether the best option in these marital situations is simply an acknowledgment by both partners that they have reached this state, that they will stay together for reasons other than sexual fulfillment; and a free pass to each other to have their sexual fun elsewhere. At some point, however, one of them may develop an emotional connection with a lover, and want it all. And then it simply prolonged the inevitable and made it more painful.

 

[dejaview]

Now provided you have not already talked together on the many issues you have in regards to her personal life or lack of, maybe now is a good time to start with open discussion and maybe counselling if it is required. You sound like you have a clear picture of what ails you in this relationship and its now up to you to do something to indeed save the whole marraige. Or, maybe you really dont , and you are the only person that can honestly answer that question.
Yeah, it sounds like she has some obvious social and career impairments in her life: no friends, no real job and no viable education to progress into a fulltime career. All told she sounds pretty isolated and more vulnerable than you may think. Her self esteem can safely be described as at a low ebb. Now is the time to examine how you approach the whole issue of tackling the problems that effect both of you in this partnership- and it still is until you decide otherwise- maybe its time for another look at how to be a more effective communicator. And believe it or not I have heard many cases where one party in a relationship will purposefully stand idly by and go through the motions of trying to deal with an marital issue, when in actual fact they just like the self satisfaction of saying I tried, really I did and It was no good. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night with that perception of an assumed honest effort that ulimately failed through no fault of your own. It becomes important in a situation like this to not use anothers failings as a step to further our own sense of being the victim or martyr as if often found in similar relationship types. In lots of ways its self gratifying to think to oneself that "The Nice Guy" tried but it was no use.
Finally did you ever think to yourself that there might be aspects to your behaviour or personality that might contribute to her sense of lack of self worth?. Relationships are a two way street and its vital to make sure you doing everything right on your side before you start worrying about whats happening in the other lane.

Best of luck to you.

 

[dsmall]

And believe it or not I have heard many cases where one party in a relationship will purposefully stand idly by and go through the motions of trying to deal with an marital issue, when in actual fact they just like the self satisfaction of saying I tried, really I did and It was no good. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night with that perception of an assumed honest effort that ulimately failed through no fault of your own.

That is completely true in almost every case. When it's over, it's usually over. Sad as it is to say, Batwomen is right, you can't fix what is truly broken. The purpose of marital counseling is usually to do just that--go through the motions. You are saying good bye in a constructive way that does not piss all over anything worthwhile you once had. No amount of honesty or additional communication can fix the relationships when they get to that point. The parties may stay together for may reasons, economic, children, or otherwise; but the relationship is basically done for that party who feels that way. Therapy or counseling may make that party respect the other person more to tolerate continuing the relationship on different terms. And that is a fundamental question. Would you want to be married and save the relationship if it meant that your spouse respected you, tolerated you, and found other benefits to offset the fact that he or she really didn't love you or feel any passion for you? In my opinion, I would hate to lay next to a woman night after night who I knew respected me and admired me as a parent, but didn't really love me or want to be intimate with me. Other people could live with that type of situation and for those people marital counseling works.

It becomes important in a situation like this to not use anothers failings as a step to further our own sense of being the victim or martyr as if often found in similar relationship types. In lots of ways its self gratifying to think to oneself that "The Nice Guy" tried but it was no use.
Finally did you ever think to yourself that there might be aspects to your behaviour or personality that might contribute to her sense of lack of self worth?. Relationships are a two way street and its vital to make sure you doing everything right on your side before you start worrying about whats happening in the other lane.

Best of luck to you.

True. But it is impossible to love someone who doesn't even love or respect themselves. You can pity them, empathize with them, support them, but you can't love them--because they don't even have enough in them to love themselves, no less love you back. You can be absolutely sure that one spouse contributes to another spouse's self-worth, but the overwhelming factor is whether your spouse loves you. Switching from contempt to pity may make the relationship more cordial and respectful, but pity and empathy is not love. And in most cases, the low self esteem spouse doesn't love their spouse, they just need them really bad to compensate for many of the issues that cause them to have low self esteem in the first place.

Again. You are offering text book advice, which if administered against the standard, did the couple stay together and stay married, is spot on. But couples stay together because they look at their tax returns, mortgage statements, and kids needs and stay together because the price of divorcing is too high and unsettling. There is nothing wrong with that and the "marriage" as an institution, is preserved. The marriage as a real loving and giving relationship died and will never be resuscitated even with the best therapy or counseling.