Body fat expectations /goals

[Johnny D]

I agree that a lean person can still have higher visceral fat. Where we disagree is that I'd wager it has more to do with their nutrition and exercise type than anything else. Plenty of lean (by normal western standards) people are so because of caloric restriction and lots of zone 2 cardio. But neither of those are necessarily helpful in reducing visceral fat. Like I said, the studies don't control for those variables. In practice, however, and what has been shown anecdotally, is that the same person could modify nutrition and exercise to drop visceral fat. Same genetics, different habits.

 

[Pegasus]

I agree that a lean person can still have higher visceral fat. Where we disagree is that I'd wager it has more to do with their nutrition and exercise type than anything else. Plenty of lean (by normal western standards) people are so because of caloric restriction and lots of zone 2 cardio. But neither of those are necessarily helpful in reducing visceral fat. Like I said, the studies don't control for those variables. In practice, however, and what has been shown anecdotally, is that the same person could modify nutrition and exercise to drop visceral fat. Same genetics, different habits.

Umm trying to work out where you argue with me >
So lets see I do believe reduction in total bodyfat will usually result in loss of visceral . I also believe you can manipulate hormones to lose visceral fat . Is there some part of that you disagree with ? I am also positing that some people will have to lower bf% lower than others to have a major effect on visceral fat , due to genetic factors .

In any case would you like to post a visceral specific fat loss routine ?

 

[Johnny D]

OK. So take someone who is considered somewhat lean but they have a disproportionate amount of visceral fat. I'm guessing that they eat a standard, but somewhat reduced caloric, diet that includes 40%+ carbohydrates. They also probably engage in they typical steady-state, zone 2 cardio stuff (jogging and whatnot). Rather than eating even less and increasing the same exercise, which will have disproportionate effect on sub/visc fat, they should eliminate the carbohydrates and switch exercise methodology to interval sprints and resistance training. I would wager that if the studies controlled for those variables - if they measured folks like me who do just that - the conclusion wouldn't be so simple as, "It's a genetic thing".

Where we disagree is that I don't think some people have to drop total bf% for a major effect on visceral fat. They need to eat and exercise differently.

 

[Pegasus]

Any studies in support you would like to link?

 

[Pegasus]

Anyway johnny you might find this link to a thread I did on this subject of interest .

fat pad and visceral fat

I am starting to suspect a link between visceral fat and the fat pad but I may be way off . Does anyone have any info to share.

thebiohacker.com

 

[Johnny D]

Any studies in support you would like to link?

Not at the ready and I don't know how many good ones have been done, if any. I do follow a bit of Dr Sean O'Mara's content and he has mounds of anecdotal cases to support the premise. I also know, personally, the effects of eliminating carbohydrates and replacing "sustained" cardio with interval sprints. But not familiar with good studies off the top of my head, which is why I typically couch my comments as my opinions, not fact.

I usually suggest to the very few people I discuss this with that they should just try a 90-day experiment of their own. The results have ranged all the way from giving up the experiment after a couple of weeks, to flat out immediate rejection I guess people love the carbs and hate the sprints that much.

And, again, the studies that claim to link visceral fat and other metabolic issues to genetics are poor and they don't control for the things that I believe are the most important - proper nutrition and proper exercise.

 

[Pegasus]

Read the thread Johnny.

 

[Johnny D]

I remember the thread. I participated in the discussion. It was a bit all over the place but don't recall anything from it that leads me to alter the opinion and experience I stated.

 

[Pegasus]

You seem to have little evidence for genetics not being involved.
This is the net with open threads "all over the pace" is normal.

 

[Johnny D]

This is the net with open threads "all over the pace" is normal.

Agreed. I wasn't complaining - just wasn't sure what of that thread in particular you were pointing me to.

You seem to have little evidence for genetics not being involved.

And I've said as much. The onus is on those who claim there's a link, and I don't believe their studies have done enough to prove it. Not even close.

I have enough anecdotal, and have researched human nutrition physiology deeply enough, to have formed an educated opinion and believe it to be very sound. And I've read tons of studies in the process over the years that are just crap - they draw conclusions from very poor information.

Here's what I know: People keep trying the same thing - eating less and doing more "cardio" - and don't see much in the way of significant results. And then you ask them to just try what I'm saying for themselves and they refuse to. I believe we'll see good studies eventually. Some, in other areas, that are refuting some of the mainstream and accepted beliefs have come out recently, and in the next 10 or whatever years, we'll see more. In the meantime, I proved it to/on myself.

 

[Pegasus]

Umm how do you come up with the onus of proof on me ?
Genetics is involved in most all human capability . Is there some reason for it not to be in this?
You make it sound as though you are a PHd in this area which is unlikely .

 

[Pegasus]

Ok so post 11 in the thread I have posted in an abstract of a metastudy which shows steady state cardio works for visceral fat loss .
Prior to that I am discussing a study showing stess is a factor .
Post 14 is 20 tips on losing belly fat ( related to visceral though not the same ) and includes avoiding processed carbs and trans fats .
Post 18 says my research up to that point (2019) had shown no clear advantage to a particular type of aerobic exercise .
In post 23 I say

I would have thought hiit would have been more effective but the evidence is lacking .
In post 51

• Oct 16, 2019
• #51

Ok so talk to the dietician and she was big on alcohol being a factor in core fat specificly especially in combo with fast acting carbs so beer and rice crackers not a good combo.

In post 54 I make this statement. My experience as a mod onsite is that slimish /average guys have a pad around half an inch to an inch . So given my bf% is 19% I should expect to have an inch or a little more . So my pad is an inch and a half so perhaps more than would normally be expected . Likewise my visceral is greater than would be expected for my bf% .
In post 72
So I lost circa 10% of my overall bodyfat but over 20% of my visceral fat . So with "only" a 2.5kg (5lb) fat loss I seem to have lowered my pad from circa 1.5 inches to circa an inch . This is a significant loss of pad given the small loss of bodyweight .

I believe this supports that loss of core /visceral fat will also cause loss of pad and that it is possible to target core /visceral fat (and thus pad ).

One of the main methods I used to accomplish this was stress reduction .
Post 104 I delved into and found some support for high and moderate intensity over low intensity . However since the high intensity is 70% plus of max heart it could be done steady state and moderate also of course .

 

[Pegasus]

Ok down to brass tacks .
Quite willing to believe hit may be more effective at least slightly . However there is no evidence to support it at this time . One would have thought a significant difference would have been obvious by this point .
So avoiding processed and high g index carbs seem supported ;so to some extent is lowering insulin levels. Don't see any particular support for very low carb or keto style diet except in that they may cause overall fat loss .

Anyway the central idea that seems to have caused this argument is in post 107. I think it is worthy of discussion and thought and possibly action it seems you do not .

Anyone else interested in the concept in post 107?

fat pad and visceral fat

I am starting to suspect a link between visceral fat and the fat pad but I may be way off . Does anyone have any info to share.

thebiohacker.com

 

[Johnny D]

Umm how do you come up with the onus of proof on me ?

I wasn't referring to you. I meant those who published studies claiming the link. If they're claiming that genetics is the cause, they have to do a much better job than they've done to prove it.

Genetics is involved in most all human capability . Is there some reason for it not to be in this?

I never once said it's not involved. I said that of all the contributing factors, I believe it's at the end of the list.

You make it sound as though you are a PHd in this area which is unlikely .

Seriously?! Give me a break, Peg. Can a person not self educate and gain knowledge in a subject?

There wasn't a link to the study you quoted from so I was never able to dig into it. Especially when conclusions from from a meta analysis, I need to get to the study and then I need to get into the studies they used in their analysis. I've read far too many poorly conducted studies to simply believe the conclusion without researching the work, myself. I never take any of the claims at face value.

Also, while I believed that your own self-reporting was sincere, I can't simply presume to apply your results to everyone. My own observations differ from yours. That doesn't mean I expect you to believe me, but if mine and yours differ, then there isn't a conclusion to be made from either. I don't know what you controlled for when you experimented on yourself. I don't know the specifics of your self-study, just as you don't know mine.

The studies that look at exercise methodology are concerned with abdominal fat and, while it *might* be possible to say that there's a relationship between abdominal fat and visceral fat, those 2 can't be conflated. The studies shown that look at exercise duration effects on visceral fat aren't controlling for exercise methodolgy. There just isn't enough there to draw a conclusion and since my own experience and my own observations show otherwise, I need more than that. And, by the way, I'm not talking about traditional HIIT when I say interval sprints. I'm talking about all-out sprinting. Not 70% or 80%. I mean 100% max effort in short bursts.

Anyway the central idea that seems to have caused this argument is in post 107. I think it is worthy of discussion and thought and possibly action it seems you do not .

If "discussion" means that I have to agree, then I suppose you're right. I think the studies are very poor and I disagree so I'll step aside and let others "discuss".

 

[Pegasus]

If you wish to find the study from post 107 it should not be hard given the info supplied .

While the science supplied is less than perfect (mind you it is never perfect) it doesn't support your conclusions . If this changes I will have a rethink .

 

[Johnny D]

The study from 107 wasn't the one I was referring to - I wasn't able to find the meta analysis that studied exercise methodology and visceral fat. Anyway, I agree that the science doesn't support my conclusion (I hesitate to call it a conclusion - more like my current working premise) but, again, nor does any of it support the assertion that genetics plays a major role.

 

[Pegasus]

Um the study in post 107 specifically mentions genetics off the top of my head .

 

[Johnny D]

Yes. I know it does. But it doesn't prove it.

 

[Pegasus]

Seems good evidence to me sure I could find more possibly within the thread I quoted but meh spent enough time .
Quite willing to believe hitt and keto have extra value over steady state and calorie dieting but there is no evidence . One would think at this point if there was significant effect there would be evidence .

So that leaves me back to losing a frac of bf% to see the effect on my personal vf .

 

[Pegasus]

I lost a frac of bodyfat but it did not help my visceral fat .
so at least that concept in my personal case did not help .
Johnny D gets a point.