Diaphragmatic breathing vs front and back reverse kegels and when to do them.

[HansTwilight]

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding belly breathing and reverse kegeling, and I think this is due to the fact that they are very similar in nature. However, it's paramount to understand that they are two different exercises, and they are used for different things, usually.

Belly breathing (diaphragmatic breathing)

Belly breaths are done by breathing in and blowing your belly up like a balloon. Consequently, your pelvic floor will expand as well, this motion is very similar to the isolated reverse kegel, or just reverse kegel. Because of this similar motion, many people with pelvic floor issues tend to get confused as to what they are supposed to do. It is important to understand that belly breathing is not so much an exercise, but a normal human function, meaning anyone can do it. It is the default way a human breathes, and it is actually an integral part in the condition known as pelvic floor hypertonia or tension in the pelvic floor muscles. So to clarify, the problem isn't in the tense pelvic floor inasmuch as the improper breathing patterns.
Therefore, if one has pelvic floor hypertonia it is important for them to do belly breathing to retrain the breathing patterns, not so much the pelvic floor. The retraining of the muscles is the byproduct of the breathing techniques. This is why pelvic floor physios put so much emphasis on belly breaths and not isolating the reverse kegel. [/U]This goes back to the breathing patterns, reverse kegeling doesn't retrain the breathing patters -the principle problem. Consequently, it has its place in other areas.

What to do

When doing the stretching and squatting, one should focus solely on their belly and not so much their pelvic floor. As mentioned previously, the pelvic floor motion is a byproduct of the breathing. The other thing to keep in mind is to do the entire motion, making sure that you are breathing in and also out, and not cutting the motion short. This will take some practice and a lot of focus and therefor the breathing should also be done without any distractions whatsoever. Close your eyes and mindfully focus on the belly and breath, making sure to get the entire motion. This is also a form of meditation- an added plus. Failure to adhere to this will result in only partial alleviation of symptoms and not full alleviation.

EDIT: Another and maybe easier way to do these is to focus on breathing air into and out of your testicles. Make sure you are expanding your ribs however. Again, this is a belly breath combo, not a front rk.

Here is a video explaining techniques:

Focused Reverse Kegels

I have decided to edit this section because I need to clarify some things from what I have learned from PTs and with experience. RKs are ok to do if they are done properly, but a lot of times they aren't. First, they need to be done in conjunction with diaphragmatic breathing... do not tense your abs.
Also, they should be done againstsomething. What I mean is they need to be done while stimulating or having sex. They can also be done after ejaculation or passing stools. Another place to do them is sitting down or after kegel exercises. The point is, they are done to "Reverse" tension, so they should be done when confronted by things that cause the muscles to activate (ejaculation, sitting, sex etc.)

 

[troublehshooter]

This certainly alters the way I will approach these exercises, very helpful information, thank you.

 

[HansTwilight]

Your welcome

 

[Hopelesss]

So are you saying just hindi squat breathing without trying to push down pelvic floor?

 

[HansTwilight]

So are you saying just hindi squat breathing without trying to push down pelvic floor?

When squatting, just do a belly breath. The pf motion happens as a result, don't try to assist it. The whole motion should be completed via breathing only.

 

[ACPreE]

Interesting. Why do you feel like Rks dont matter? I can understand that breathing helps a bit but not to the point it overshadows rks and pf work. Where iv seen some do things out of order is trying to stretch and edge before apt is corrected.

Haven't you done extensive rk work?

Just trying to understand differences to my understanding. I do a bit of work and have clearly felt an expansion in the space between relaxed and tense. I subconsciously kegel but not as much anymore. I would hold a slight kegel all day long and kegel when sex and masturbation. Retraining that reflex I couldnt see being done with breathing alone.

Would like to see in a little more detail because I dont quite understand.

 

[HansTwilight]

Interesting. Why do you feel like Rks dont matter? I can understand that breathing helps a bit but not to the point it overshadows rks and pf work. Where iv seen some do things out of order is trying to stretch and edge before apt is corrected.

Haven't you done extensive rk work?

Just trying to understand differences to my understanding. I do a bit of work and have clearly felt an expansion in the space between relaxed and tense. I subconsciously kegel but not as much anymore. I would hold a slight kegel all day long and kegel when sex and masturbation. Retraining that reflex I couldnt see being done with breathing alone.

Would like to see in a little more detail because I dont quite understand.

I may not have been clear, but my only rk work was during stimulation.
I probably should have specified, but if you are trying to eliminate iks during sex/stimulation, then you can RK. If you are retraining your pelvic floor, rks are not going to do it because retaining your breathing patters is what is required to maintain that relaxation.
Rks have diminishing returns in hypertonic pelvic floor if you aren't belly breathing and can hinder progress. So therefore they should be avoided until your pf has been recovered. The can help initially, but if they are overdone it will not retrain the muscles properly.

I just know in my experience, I got hypertonic pelvic floor a 2nd time from iks while having sex and i couldn't cut the Iks out until I retrained my pelvic floor via belly breaths. When I started doing rks (focused more on back rks), i lost progress, now after doing belly breathing I am much better and have way less iks during sex/ masturbation. In fact, it was nearly impossible for me to not ik during sex when i my pf was so tense. This might just be my experience however, but it makes perfect sense to me, I never reverse kegeled my way to relief, it was all in the belly breathing.

What all did you have/how did you treat it?

Also note that no where in my work does it ever tell you to reverse kegel in place of belly breathing, if it does then I will edit it.

 

[ACPreE]

Ah I see how you could come to that conclusion.
I have APT, (tight quads, weak core/lower abs, tight back) Improved it greatly so far with 5-6 days of leg lifts and working that issue.
I saw the most dramatic changes in my stamina when I introduced Core work and Upped my RKs as i incorporated them in my other stretches/workouts that dont require the PF for support.

I do practice triangular breathing while doing Hindi squats but at the up most breath I also push a RK to intensify the natural expansion feeling from the deep belly breathing.

I did Stretching almost daily, RK work almost daily (not as intense as now but conditioning was required) Edging few days a week for a while. Introduced breathing and self awareness somewhere in the middle of my 8 month recovery. But my times still ranged between 2pumps and 30seconds.

Currently I haven't focused on the breathing aspect but focused mainly on the Core/ab work, RKs and stretching. Fixing the APT is crucial. That is why i was curious. Breathing i can see be a must for controlling high arousal and anxiety and the natural pf inflation and deflation from belly breathing is good for retraining the PF to work as its supposed to.

That is just my experience, wanted to just bounce thoughts around because i know my stamina has improved from this method. Not doubting there are other ways to recover but just brainstorming. I just know now I can last a lot longer then 2 pumps and I finish after my gf. Nothing more i could ask for.

 

[HansTwilight]

Ah I see how you could come to that conclusion.
I have APT, (tight quads, weak core/lower abs, tight back) Improved it greatly so far with 5-6 days of leg lifts and working that issue.
I saw the most dramatic changes in my stamina when I introduced Core work and Upped my RKs as i incorporated them in my other stretches/workouts that dont require the PF for support.

I do practice triangular breathing while doing Hindi squats but at the up most breath I also push a RK to intensify the natural expansion feeling from the deep belly breathing.

I did Stretching almost daily, RK work almost daily (not as intense as now but conditioning was required) Edging few days a week for a while. Introduced breathing and self awareness somewhere in the middle of my 8 month recovery. But my times still ranged between 2pumps and 30seconds.

Currently I haven't focused on the breathing aspect but focused mainly on the Core/ab work, RKs and stretching. Fixing the APT is crucial. That is why i was curious. Breathing i can see be a must for controlling high arousal and anxiety and the natural pf inflation and deflation from belly breathing is good for retraining the PF to work as its supposed to.

That is just my experience, wanted to just bounce thoughts around because i know my stamina has improved from this method. Not doubting there are other ways to recover but just brainstorming. I just know now I can last a lot longer then 2 pumps and I finish after my gf. Nothing more i could ask for.

Interesting, my experiences were totally different, though I don't think I have APT, just tight heel cords. Perhaps writing a thread about APT and Rking could be helpful,
When you write it I will add it to https://www.pegym.com/forums/penile...ard-flaccid-chronic-pelvic-pain-syndrome.html

 

[DickerSchwanz]

Hans, superb work to explain this in a very clear way!

Isolations can create a lot of problems resulting in imbalance. Truth is many people don't have the mindset to do it right and will fuck it up.
The whole "do your kegels" craze that's now everywhere, with people doing unfocused unbalanced kegels in their car etc. has also created lots of problems and I think could be one of the reasons for the hard flaccid epidemic.
The old school guys in PE forums promoted kegels and other stuff cause they assumed everyone applies common sense and takes personal responsibility.

I would propose to add a second stage after the belly breathing is established..
Focusing awareness to consciously expand the breath into the pelvic floor. I imagine a deflated balloon inside my PF that I fill up.
Another problem is people solely focusing on the front side of their belly and pelvic floor. A full belly breath will not only expand the belly but also the lower back.
A full "pelvic floor breath" will expand the whole area up to the tailbone.

When I first opened my PF up that way, my tailbone literally jumped up and out of a locked state.
When I do a full pelvic floor breath now it feels like my tailbone is wiggling like a dogs tail .

Only from there I was able to use the isolated exercises, like you detailed in your other threads so nicely. Before I did for several years all kinds of kegel exercises with a tight and suppressed PF. Only now I can use the full range of an isolated kegel. Before it was like someone sitting on your biceps while you do bicep curls. You know it, everything down there is connected. A tight asshole will mess with front kegels

 

[ACPreE]

I think you may have been light RKing while doing belly breathing from what it sounds. I know there are multiple levels of RK work. So when I say "I did RKs" i mean, I focused on the front and mid region and pushed with lower abs. This is kind of a forced way of stretching/relaxing.

Deep Belly breathing trains your PF to breath with your deep breaths in a sense. I agree 100% with you that this is a very good way to retrain the natural movement and flexibility of the PF. The only flip side to this is how far gone someone is.

I believe the PF stretches help loosen up the area.
RK help retrain your body to have that expansion, stretch and workout that BC muscle.
Belly breathing is fantastic for what you have mentioned but I don't believe RKs should be ignored.

APT or as iv read PPT too have an affect on that ability to RK. Pelvic tilt tightens up the PF and fixing APT should be number 1.
Have seen people with or without APT work their core/lower abs and see some success. I remember years ago when I was doing regular ab work and leg lifts, my stamina was much better then it went downhill as i got soft.

I remember the debate between Imac and Steven something or other years ago about light Rks vs hard Rks. And i took both of the ideas into consideration when I was going through recovery. Tried light and didn't improve much because my PF was way too tight. Tried hard and I started feeling the area develop more and expand more. I tried to focus my RKs on the front and mid area because back RKs just puckered out my butthole and I didn't see much benefit to it.

I guess there isn't an actual thread on the topic of APT but its been talked about quite a bit in the Premature Ejaculation Threads. How those with APT, when they manually correct their Pelvis, RKs and relaxing becomes a lot easier and more effective. Fixing APT is done through core/lower ab work, Hip Flexor stretches and lower back stretches and glute work. The Ab work pulls up the front of the pelvis, Stretching the Hip flexors relieves some of the downward pull. Same on the back side as well. When the APT is making improvements, the PreE work becomes easier.

I think fixing APT and stretching the PF should be done first or the belly breathing wont have much effect because there is no flexibility in the PF to start with. That was just my experience. I was too tight to even feel a RK or relax the PF at all for a good month. And then through 6months or so I had very little if any improvement in my stamina till I started really focusing on my APT with Core/Ab work along with the stretching.

Boy this PreE is a complicated beast isn't it.

 

[HansTwilight]

Hans, superb work to explain this in a very clear way!

Isolations can create a lot of problems resulting in imbalance. Truth is many people don't have the mindset to do it right and will fuck it up.
The whole "do your kegels" craze that's now everywhere, with people doing unfocused unbalanced kegels in their car etc. has also created lots of problems and I think could be one of the reasons for the hard flaccid epidemic.
The old school guys in PE forums promoted kegels and other stuff cause they assumed everyone applies common sense and takes personal responsibility.

I totally agree with that, and in my experience, millennials (young people) appear to be sufferers more than any other demographic.

I would propose to add a second stage after the belly breathing is established..
Focusing awareness to consciously expand the breath into the pelvic floor. I imagine a deflated balloon inside my PF that I fill up.
Another problem is people solely focusing on the front side of their belly and pelvic floor. A full belly breath will not only expand the belly but also the lower back.
A full "pelvic floor breath" will expand the whole area up to the tailbone.
When I first opened my PF up that way, my tailbone literally jumped up and out of a locked state.
When I do a full pelvic floor breath now it feels like my tailbone is wiggling like a dogs tail .

Only from there I was able to use the isolated exercises, like you detailed in your other threads so nicely. Before I did for several years all kinds of kegel exercises with a tight and suppressed PF. Only now I can use the full range of an isolated kegel. Before it was like someone sitting on your biceps while you do bicep curls. You know it, everything down there is connected. A tight asshole will mess with front kegels

Good explanation, thank you for contributing.

 

[DickerSchwanz]

Great points ACPreE! Learned a lot..! I'm planning on visiting a chiropractic, they seem to have the best gauge on APT and such..

Tried light and didn't improve much because my PF was way too tight. Tried hard and I started feeling the area develop more and expand more. I tried to focus my RKs on the front and mid area because back RKs just puckered out my butthole and I didn't see much benefit to it.

Granted, you might not have problems in that area but I had the same thoughts years ago.. Then I somehow managed to almost pop open a pelvic floor area behind the anus towards the tailbone that must've been tight for years.. From there I noticed that the whole "pucker the butthole out" is just the first stage. There are so many muscles layers around and above the butthole and I worked to release one after the other. As they're all connected they all have influence on the front muscles like BC and IC's and hence the penis and erection quality.
I now can "bulge out" the whole PF wherever no bone is in the way.. The tailbone is seemingly wiggling up when I go really hard RK pressure out + breathing in deep down. If I do that during the height of an edging sessions my dick blows up to it's maximum due to the pressure created inside out..

Long story short.. what I thought are Kegels and RK's where just superficial twitches compared to what I can do now...
Open up the whole PF in a compound motion down and out 360°..

 

[DickerSchwanz]

I totally agree with that, and in my experience, millennials (young people) appear to be sufferers more than any other demographic.

These conditions were almost unheard of 10+ years ago and are constantly increasing popping up across all men's forums - PE, fitness etc. ..
I remember wanking to a Lara Croft double page poster in the 90's standing upright lol. Today guys wank into their smartphones or hunched over infront of the pc cramping up. Insane.

 

[HansTwilight]

I think you may have been light RKing while doing belly breathing from what it sounds. I know there are multiple levels of RK work. So when I say "I did RKs" i mean, I focused on the front and mid region and pushed with lower abs. This is kind of a forced way of stretching/relaxing.

Deep Belly breathing trains your PF to breath with your deep breaths in a sense. I agree 100% with you that this is a very good way to retrain the natural movement and flexibility of the PF. The only flip side to this is how far gone someone is.

I believe the PF stretches help loosen up the area.
RK help retrain your body to have that expansion, stretch and workout that BC muscle.
Belly breathing is fantastic for what you have mentioned but I don't believe RKs should be ignored.

APT or as iv read PPT too have an affect on that ability to RK. Pelvic tilt tightens up the PF and fixing APT should be number 1.
Have seen people with or without APT work their core/lower abs and see some success. I remember years ago when I was doing regular ab work and leg lifts, my stamina was much better then it went downhill as i got soft.

I remember the debate between Imac and Steven something or other years ago about light Rks vs hard Rks. And i took both of the ideas into consideration when I was going through recovery. Tried light and didn't improve much because my PF was way too tight. Tried hard and I started feeling the area develop more and expand more. I tried to focus my RKs on the front and mid area because back RKs just puckered out my butthole and I didn't see much benefit to it.

I guess there isn't an actual thread on the topic of APT but its been talked about quite a bit in the Premature Ejaculation Threads. How those with APT, when they manually correct their Pelvis, RKs and relaxing becomes a lot easier and more effective. Fixing APT is done through core/lower ab work, Hip Flexor stretches and lower back stretches and glute work. The Ab work pulls up the front of the pelvis, Stretching the Hip flexors relieves some of the downward pull. Same on the back side as well. When the APT is making improvements, the PreE work becomes easier.

I think fixing APT and stretching the PF should be done first or the belly breathing wont have much effect because there is no flexibility in the PF to start with. That was just my experience. I was too tight to even feel a RK or relax the PF at all for a good month. And then through 6months or so I had very little if any improvement in my stamina till I started really focusing on my APT with Core/Ab work along with the stretching.

Boy this PreE is a complicated beast isn't it.

If you like, you can create a thread regarding your opinions on APT and Rks and I will happily add it to the Pelvic Floor Issues sticky if you like

 

[ACPreE]

Great points ACPreE! Learned a lot..! I'm planning on visiting a chiropractic, they seem to have the best gauge on APT and such..

Granted, you might not have problems in that area but I had the same thoughts years ago.. Then I somehow managed to almost pop open a pelvic floor area behind the anus towards the tailbone that must've been tight for years.. From there I noticed that the whole "pucker the butthole out" is just the first stage. There are so many muscles layers around and above the butthole and I worked to release one after the other. As they're all connected they all have influence on the front muscles like BC and IC's and hence the penis and erection quality.
I now can "bulge out" the whole PF wherever no bone is in the way.. The tailbone is seemingly wiggling up when I go really hard RK pressure out + breathing in deep down. If I do that during the height of an edging sessions my dick blows up to it's maximum due to the pressure created inside out..

Long story short.. what I thought are Kegels and RK's where just superficial twitches compared to what I can do now...
Open up the whole PF in a compound motion down and out 360°..

Agreed, I can do the full push out and routinely do sets in my car while driving to and from work now instead of tennis ball massages. I think my tailbone is still tight as i don't feel much movement, only some pain if i do prolonged back PF work. Not sure what the pain is caused from.

When i do my RKs as part of my home routines, i focus on the front and mid. Generally i can single out about 3-4 regions in the PF. Front mid back and tailbone. I can also control the balls moving up and down but never explored that muscle. When i push out RKs doing deep belly breaths front mid and back are felt expanding. When doing hindi squats, the back is the only portion that expands now so i stopped pushing RKs in Hindi Squat, only belly breathing.

But all this became easier after working the APT. You may be able to give it a try and see the difference, force your pelvis into an anterior pelvic tilt position and try doing RKs. It feels tighter and a little more awkward, like the direction of the push isn't right.

I may write up something here about APT and RKs. It has seemed to be a common thing people have with PreE but isn't mentioned right off the bat. A lot of us have very sedimentary lives so naturally your hip flexors will tighten and your abs will weaken and then comes the movement of the pelvis into APT.

 

[DickerSchwanz]

Good points, I agree that almost all tricks we do down there, like Hans laid out in OP, immensely profit from being done in many different positions!
Laying on the side and alternate pulling 1 knee to the chest is one I like and is easy to do morning and evening.
I remember having a sedative time years ago where I masturbated in just one position and discovered that I only could do intercourse in a similar position.

 

[FutureChamp707]

Please help me guys, I've read both articles"Hans Protocol" and this one.
This is my plan, I'm open to all suggestions
No sex, no masturbation, no PE, no heavy lifting, no stress, no running, all relaxed, all the time. CHECK
1st. do belly breathing and hot bathes to relax the muscles until no symptoms for a week.
2nd. After no symptoms for a week, then front reverse kegels after belly breathing techniques to retrain the muscles.
question though. How many front reverse kegels should I do, and how often? Its definitely the tightest by the BC/pubic bone(like a tight rope or cord) with symptoms like ED, required use of lots of toilet paper, and not being able to last as long as usual)
Few more questions please
*How often should you recommend doing belly breathing? Ive been doing it 3 times a day 10-15 min sets.
*When should I incorporate squats and how many, and what pace?
*Is sex ok? sometimes I notice good symptoms after sex, sometimes not so much :/
*Can I do push ups and pull ups to stay in shape?
*Would you recommend laying on your stomach and focusing your breaths towards your butt?
*What point should I take a stretch to 1-10
*Should I do belly breathing while stretching?
Please fellas, this has been an ongoing nightmare for years now, but after reading HANS Protocol, I'm incredibly inspired to cure this injury.
P.S. Injury was from doing way too many kegels(8 years ago), trying to hold back an orgasm(8 years ago), and using the bathmate more than I should have over the past 8 years.
Thank you

 

[Pegasus]

Please help me guys, I've read both articles"Hans Protocol" and this one.
This is my plan, I'm open to all suggestions
No sex, no masturbation, no PE, no heavy lifting, no stress, no running, all relaxed, all the time. CHECK
1st. do belly breathing and hot bathes to relax the muscles until no symptoms for a week.
2nd. After no symptoms for a week, then front reverse kegels after belly breathing techniques to retrain the muscles.
question though. How many front reverse kegels should I do, and how often? Its definitely the tightest by the BC/pubic bone(like a tight rope or cord) with symptoms like ED, required use of lots of toilet paper, and not being able to last as long as usual)
Few more questions please
*How often should you recommend doing belly breathing? Ive been doing it 3 times a day 10-15 min sets.
*When should I incorporate squats and how many, and what pace?
*Is sex ok? sometimes I notice good symptoms after sex, sometimes not so much :/
*Can I do push ups and pull ups to stay in shape?
*Would you recommend laying on your stomach and focusing your breaths towards your butt?
*What point should I take a stretch to 1-10
*Should I do belly breathing while stretching?
Please fellas, this has been an ongoing nightmare for years now, but after reading HANS Protocol, I'm incredibly inspired to cure this injury.
P.S. Injury was from doing way too many kegels(8 years ago), trying to hold back an orgasm(8 years ago), and using the bathmate more than I should have over the past 8 years.
Thank you

Have you seen a physio who does male pelvic floor work?

 

[FutureChamp707]

Yes I did, through kaiser. She had me go through an evaluation and examined the area. She said she noticed nothing "too concerning" just a little tightness in some areas. She recommended to stop PE, keep orgasms to a maximum of 3 a week, and she gave me a little packet showing me 3 different belly breathing positions. I got so much more vital info from the "Hans protocol" post. I can set up phone calls with her though to help me along the process with you guys. I want to cure this thoroughly and permanently, then get back into some light PE. It's always been very inconsistent down there, some days are great, some days are frustrating. I'm so determined to fix this once and for all.