Gun Violence is as American as Apple Pie

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Pegasus

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Read it yet again guys it is very clear, gun deaths in the US are several times other first world countries. The stats for uk and aussie and nz are there. The nearest comparable country to US is porrtugal at about a third of US rates. As I stated previous. Other countries with high rates like Coulmbia, are not first world countries.
You guys might be ok with this but don't go making stuff up, other first world countries have gun violence yes ;but at a fraction of US rates.
 

redbear52

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Nobody is arguing that gun related crime in the US is way too high. The question is what methods do or do not work to curb it.

Many US states have now adopted "concealed carry" or even "open carry" laws. In every instance, gun control advocates lobbied very hard against passage. Invariably, doom and gloom scenarios of dramatically escalating gun crime and gun related death rates were presented. The fact is that gun related crime rates have not gone up in states that enacted these laws, and in some cases have gone down.
 

Nothin2ItBut2DoIt

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I'm from Canada, and obviously you guys know we don't have the 'right to bare arms'. But even so there are guns everywhere. I don't think prohibiting them or changing laws will do much. In my opinion it may increase violence because someone may feel more confident attacking/robbing a house, etc, knowing that the average person cannot legally own a gun, therefore no fear in the attacker.
I also think that even if they were to change the laws, guns would still be prevalent. Living in Canada the only guns you can legally buy are for hunting purposes and you need a license. Yet it's almost as easy as buying a pair of sneakers (except for a considerable amount more) to get your hands on a handgun or shotgun. It obviously depends on the area, but even in Canada gun crimes are growing everywhere.

Many guys I went to high school with have put themselves in the situation to buy guns and use them, and it just seems to be happening more because they're all getting the mindset that it's cool and blah blah.

It almost seems like a problem that will just exponentially grow.......
 

Going411x7

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Unfortunately, we are a species that tends to imitate others' behavior. (And even though Canada's gun death rate is climbing, it is still way below the U.S's even though there are just as many guns up there as there are here). A good example is following traffic laws. If the cops are not there to enforce them, people start to act irresponsibly on the highway, and then yada, yada, yada. We are copycats. If you have raised children, you know what I mean.

I agree with Peg's analysis that there is no way to get around the stats that death by guns in the U.S. has been epidemic for quite some time, compared to other so-called "civilized" countries. I never thought of the U.S. as civilized. I think we are far from a model nation when it comes to our way of life. The fact that we resort to gun violence so easily has always disturbed me, but even more so since a close relative of mine, in a psychotic episode, shotgunned to death an innocent woman bystander, shooting her in the back, orphaning her two teenage children. Her blood stains will remain in my mind's eye until the day I die.
 
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Pegasus

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This is very sad G4 and I take it up to that time, he was more or less a law abiding citizen?
 

Going411x7

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He was a prison guard--got into a squabble with a fellow guard, no less--then went into a mad rage, I'm assuming a psychotic state--went home and got a gun--turned out to be my old shotgun--and the rest is in my post. :sad:

I just heard on the news some stats on deaths by gunfire, (including suicides), in the U.S.: astounding: 150,000 during the past decade, a million ? since 1963 when Kennedy was assassinated? Hard to believe. I have to check out those statistics.
 

Going411x7

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I just checked out the stats from a NY Times piece based on the World Almanac for the year 2007: just under 30,000 deaths in the U.S. that year, an average of 81 a day--half from suicides, most of them white males, the rest either murder or accidental shootings. I wonder what the figures would be if there were no guns??? :rolleyes: Just a thought. John Lennon's "Imagine" comes to mind.
 

Pegasus

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Gee prison guards do psyc tests too. This must have been very hard on you g4.
 

BigPunn65

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Im not trying to be insensitive but there was a world before guns and it was more savage and brutal than it is now. I dunno about you guys but id rather be shot then stabbed anyday. Europe is on the verge of collapse and the average joe is gonna wish he had his guns back.
 

Shambok

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This is a very sensitive topic but being from South Africa, the country with the highest per capita murder rate from firearms, I thought I'd offer some views for the discussion and paint a picture to put your situations in perspective.

Firstly, there is one aspect many of us here envy those of you in the US, Europe, Australia and such on. It is that when there is a gun related death in your countries, especially a massacre, it raises questions and heated public debate with a sense of urgency. That's something we admire and the common comment I've heard passed on the news of the massacre in the States was how 'at least the Americans give a damn about it'.

Over here however there is no urgency of action or thought towards such events unless the gun deaths are graphic or involve someone of celebrity for the purpose of selling news. The murder rate you see in that link is all too true and an accepted way of life here.

Psychotic murders with guns here are also too common and sometimes are hardly even noticed by the broader public. The recession seems to have increased the number of stories of unstable fathers suddenly murdering their entire families before turning their gun on themselves. We are indeed too trigger happy as shown by the recent case of how a drunk off duty police officer with 40 years of service gunned down one of the national cricket officials because of an argument. From what I also gather, victims of most firearm related murders knew their murderer. Take how one man shot his cousin because of an argument over a woman or how two drunk friend's own recent argument ended in death.

It's not uncommon in some ultra-conservative Afrikaans areas to see Afrikaner women carrying their own guns. One (rather rough) woman I had the misfortune of knowing nearly drew her gun at a party once on some guys because they had thought it would be funny to throw her into the pool.

On the other hand one guy I encountered described a horrifying story of how he was hi-jacked, beaten and forcibly taken to the middle of slummish Hillbrow in Johannesburg where his greedy and bloodthirsty assailants brazenly told him that they intended to force him to withdraw all the money from his account at an ATM before finishing him off with a bullet to the brain. Somehow they'd missed how he had a small handgun concealed in the front of his pants. So as he was marched down a busy Hillbrow street by the three of them with a hidden gun pushed into the side of his abdomen he took the last chance left to him, turned, drew out his firearm and removed the safety in one smooth movement before shooting two of them dead. The cops called to the scene upon arriving didn't arrest him but almost immediately congratulated him for taking out what they recognised straight away as two hardened criminals. But it's still something he never wished to happen because although by rights he should be dead today and what he did saved his life it sticks with him and troubles him. At least the court saw it as self defence too.

Local nature conservation can also be violent. Recently five rhino poachers entered into a firefight with game rangers in the middle of a game park. All five poachers were shot and the result was greeted with much enthusiasm by the wider public. But lets not also forget that in some of these rural areas too there are still powerful wild animals and rangers have had to resort to their heavy rifles when herbivores like enraged elephant bulls or hippos have charged visitors (did you know that hippos kill more people than any other large animal locally?). That may not have anything to do with human crime per say but it does suggest how guns are also indeed a life saving necessity in some natural environments.

And yet we have these supposedly amazing gun control laws modelled on Europe's. The problem here is that the enforcement and administration thereof has completely collapsed and guns regularly disappear from police firearm depots due to malaise and corruption in the police force while military grade firepower can even be stolen from the army. That's not helped either by how the criminal justice system is in utter shambles underlining how critical a suitable crime prevention system is and allowing a free gun policy would only make it worse. The crime rate itself is also only partially abated even though the number of firearms in the country has been (admirably) reduced and the civil war in neighbouring Mozambique, that was promoting the entry of arms into the country, ended long ago.

What is interesting then is to point how the private security agencies have triple the number of public police officers with some being armed patrols equivalent to the American model and others even more heavily armed units, which does serve as valuable deterrents against the proliferation of firearms.

That's because when criminals invade homes and take the residents hostage they often demand the household firearm and can be willing to engage in torture to extract information thereof. The private security agencies however bring the promise of substantial and well trained firepower so homeowners who can afford private security prefer to turn to that than sometimes own a gun. That does deny lower level criminals freer access to firearms.

But criminals locally can also be amazingly ingenious. In the townships hand made handguns can be found and bought with some effort. No gun laws are going to stop someone creating that by hand, although stricter police enforcement would deter them. The same would count for care hi-jackers, who use their filed down handguns to ambush people.

The maelstrom I've described above seems to both raise doubts in the validity of gun control in some aspects but validates it in others. What I'm however ultimately trying to point out that firstly neither a free for all for guns nor draconian gun control is feasible or realistic as it's an imperfect world that rests on the sanity of wider societies. Secondly that without the will and ability to maintain a proper criminal system that properly deters criminals then gun control is self defeating. Thirdly that laws seeking to deny the mentally unstable access to firearms without denying the law abiding and stable access to firearms, and not military grade firepower, is also critical. Rights come commensurate with responsibilities and when a mentally unstable individual is unable to maintain the responsibility of their wellbeing then gun rights for them are questionable.
 
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CUSP82

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The problem lies in each individual society. People are under different stresses and strains. When susceptible people hit their breaking point well then we have mayhem. Whatever the desire; felt wronged numerous times, trying to get ahead in the world and not quite making it, love gone bad, business gone bad, and the list goes on and on. Today the U.S. may lead in gun deaths. Tomorrow it could be someplace else. We have a far journey to go as a species. We have not reached Camelot nor will we for many years. It is people that must change and bring a change to society as a whole before this senseless killing stops. Thousands of years ago a rule was written into stone; Thou shalt not kill. How many centuries have gone and we still haven't figured it out. At the risk of sounding religious, thousands of years ago man was given, or even made up, 10 rules to live by. We didn't do to well with them. Then a couple thousand years ago this guy Jesus shows up and tries to make it simple. Since we weren't doing to well with 10 he cut it down to two; love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. Well if you want to throw out the first one for whatevr reason here it is 2000 years later and we still can't seem to get the second one right!
 

Going411x7

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We seem to have a lot in common with South Africa, (in spite of some major differences): men snapping under pressure, killing family and co-workers; bona fide psychotics who get a hold of an assault weapon and take a bunch of people out. There are so many factors over which we have limited control that it boggles the mind.

But there is one area I think we can come to an agreement on in this country and that is to renew the ban on assault weapons, the IRA diehards be damned (Charleton Heston has gone on to the great gun duel in the sky). In addition, if we can ban these multiple round magazines, we can at least reduce the number of killed and wounded if not the acts themselves. And as in South Africa, we need to make sure the gun control laws already in place are strictly enforced.
 
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Going411x7

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The problem lies in each individual society. People are under different stresses and strains. When susceptible people hit their breaking point well then we have mayhem. Whatever the desire; felt wronged numerous times, trying to get ahead in the world and not quite making it, love gone bad, business gone bad, and the list goes on and on. Today the U.S. may lead in gun deaths. Tomorrow it could be someplace else. We have a far journey to go as a species. We have not reached Camelot nor will we for many years. It is people that must change and bring a change to society as a whole before this senseless killing stops. Thousands of years ago a rule was written into stone; Thou shalt not kill. How many centuries have gone and we still haven't figured it out. At the risk of sounding religious, thousands of years ago man was given, or even made up, 10 rules to live by. We didn't do to well with them. Then a couple thousand years ago this guy Jesus shows up and tries to make it simple. Since we weren't doing to well with 10 he cut it down to two; love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. Well if you want to throw out the first one for whatevr reason here it is 2000 years later and we still can't seem to get the second one right!

:agree:

Man, do I agree with you, Cusp. Until we change the whole gun culture in our society, we will never even come close to Camelot.
 

redbear52

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I don't care in the least whether or not extended magazines are legal or not, but I suspect banning them will have little impact for the reasons I mentioned. Multiple preloaded magazines are easily carried and a magazine can be very quickly dropped and replaced (well under 2 seconds) by anyone who has practiced doing it even casually. And extended magazines can be very easily constructed on the black market in even an amateurish machine shop.

"Assault weapon" is a buzz word that often has very little to do with lethality. Many of the so-called "assault rifles" were so defined because they were military models with bayonet mounts. Now, I don't believe that anyone has run amok and bayoneted multiple innocent bystanders recently, and a semi-automatic rifle without a bayonet mount is every bit as lethal as one with a mount, but one becomes an "assault rifle" and the other is not.

A deer hunting rifle with a telescopic sight could easily be defined as a "high-powered sniper rifle" if one so chooses, but it doesn't change what it is, or its lethality in the hands of a nut case.

In terms of pure close range lethality, a pump shotgun is about as lethal as anything going. A sawed-off pump shotgun without a stock can also be easily concealed. Of course, a shotgun with a sawed off barrel is illegal, but that won't prevent someone from using one. So is the remedy to outlaw shotguns? There will be a lot of pissed-off duck hunters if you do.
 

Going411x7

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There is a thing called common sense here that should be considered. However you want to cut it, there are just too many guns out there that are too easily accessible by too many unbalanced people.
 

TinyMutantNinjaTurtle

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To everyone who is calling for stricter gun laws, may I offer this little tidbit: If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons made Oprah fat! Remember: Hold the person accountable for their actions, not the means they chose!
 

Pegasus

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Didn't this last guy get tackled while changing mags?
 

Closed039

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Didn't this last guy get tackled while changing mags?

I'm not sure if he was or wasn't but he was not in the act of firing when he was apprehended. So it is possible. Are you bringing this up as reason to support a ban on extended mags?
I am really interested to hear him release some sort of statement regarding his motives. Its making me sick hearing some political pundits pointing fingers at everybody except this loon.
 

Pegasus

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I know 2 sec is a long time in sport,games are won in a fraction of a sec.
 
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