The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory

[remek]

Iguana: Interesting find on the Angiotensin. Do you by any chance know how it creates a growth response?

 

[Iguana]

remek, from my understanding, angiotensin is a type of peptide vasoconstrictor that elevates blood pressure. It's not really the presence of angiotensin that causes new tissue growth but a biochemical reaction from the elevated blood pressure. Meaning that angiogenesis can occur from elevated blood pressure/volume from any catalyst including angiotensin. The reason for my citing it, is it's prevailing use in angiogenesis studies. It's the increased blood volume and or pressure promotes remodeling of the vascular system.

 

[Iguana]

Remek, got me rethinking Smooth Muscle in this most awesome thread. I had been recording and compiling some research and working on some new ideas and this seemed to be a good time to try to put it together to share with you guys. First, I can’t say for sure that there is anything new here as far as components, ideas or concepts but as a whole, I think this may be a new perspective on the process of how and why growth takes place and why it ceases. I may be way off base. But, this is what makes sense in my mind. Feel free to share your thoughts, critiques and input.


Anatomy

There are two main central components involved in enlargement:

1. The Corpus Cavernosa/Corpus Spongiosum - erectile sinusoids - composed of about 50% smooth muscle and 50% collagen.
2. The tunica albuginea – a dense outer lining surrounding the erectile chambers - composed of elastin and collagen.


Enlarging the Erectile Chambers: I wholeheartedly agree with remek. I believe the evidence here points to Tissue Regeneration: (Growth comes from added smooth muscle tissue and cell regeneration)


It is well documented that several factors can elicit a growth response in smooth muscle cells, including, but not limited to, stretching, injury and increased blood pressure. The following are excellent articles which support this.
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/262/5/R895
http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=10666084
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999

I think that is what happens with jelqing and clamping. It seems to be the same process (angiogenesis) observed in patients with blocked arteries; increased blood pressure puts stress loads on the vascular cavities and natural arterial bypasses are formed as a result (although they are not usually able to fully compensate for the blockage.) In our case, when the stress load from exercise exceeds what the tissue is accustomed to a growth response is the result.

Growth process stages:

A. Catalyst (Injury, Exercise, Force, etc.)
B. Inflammation, Repair, Healing,
C. Healing, Rest, Deconditioning

Call it IPR or whatever you want but this seems to be the body's natural healing cycle regardless of the tissue type involved.

• Enlarging the Tunica Albuginea

Here is where I diverge from the accepted beliefs regarding growth. First off, we must realize we are dealing with a tough fibrous structure that is difficult (but not impossible) to injure. The tunica has the ability to stretch to approximately 150% of its size. I believe initial gains (Newbie gains) are simply nothing more that maximizing the elastic capacity of the tunica (with minimal plastic deformation.) If a person is only utilizing say 90%, 110% or even 120% of his EQ potential there is room for some very quick elastic gains. This seems to be the case since the first noted benefit after starting PE is better erection quality. Once the elasticity is exhausted gains retard. From this point it would have to be pretty much plastic deformation. (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1464-410X.1997.26511.x)

Coupled with that point, this article states; healthy tissue itself adapts (to stress) by reorganizing the direction of collagen fibrils increasing the tissue's tensile strength. Evidence seems to support this: “Self-assembled collagen fibers were stretched 0-50% before cross-linking and then characterized by microscopy and mechanical testing. Results of these studies indicate that fibrillar orientation, packing, and ultimate tensile strength can be increased by stretching.” Self-assembly of collagen fibers. Influence of fibrillar alignment and decorin on mechanical properties., as we train the elasticity is exhausted and the tissue gains strength so more force is needed to achieve the same results.

It may be that the stretching of the tunica not only allows for greater expansion of the CC and CS chambers but also provides addition room for new tissue growth. If this is correct then this would greatly impact the way we train and could explain some observed odd PE phenomenon. For instance, once the tunica elasticity is maximized a routine with heavy jelqing would not be advantageous due to the fact there would be very limited room for tissue growth. It would make more sense to focus on stretching out the tunica and then fill the added room with new smooth muscle growth.

BPFSL and BPEL comparisons may be an indicator as to the elastic composition of an individual -
This could also explain why some have a BPFSL much greater than their BPEL. Meaning, the CC/CS tissue volume is not adequate enough to “fill in the gap.” It’s like not having enough air to fill your balloon. So, if your BPFSL and BPEL are close together, you would focus on a stretch intensive routine. If not, focus on a jelq, pump, and/or clamp routine.


This could also explain why gains disappear during a break. It is documented that smooth muscle can atrophy. One cause is decreased blood pressure from venous leakage in patients with ED. Meaning, increased stress/blood pressure = increased smooth muscle volume. Decreased stress/blood pressure = decreased smooth muscle volume.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16390736&dopt=AbstractPlus
It could be that the smooth muscle, like skeletal muscle, atrophies when not used. This would also explain why gains return rather quickly.
I believe once the maximum elasticity of the tunica is reached (end of newbie gains) then it becomes a whole new ball game – total plastic deformation. This is where most guys give up.


I hope this makes sense. After reading back through it I'm not so sure : )

 

[Dicko]

It makes sense Iguana, good findings and thoughts! I share your thoughts on the tunica, especially the "whole new ball game" part. That's pretty much where I'm at right now and have been for quite some time. I'm not so sure about the approach you suggest though. What do you think about the "SM creating PD on the tunica" concept?

Or.. we could simply be pushing the elasticity of the tunica.

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant.

It's not really the presence of angiotensin that causes new tissue growth but a biochemical reaction from the elevated blood pressure.

Priapism has the same effect. It elevates blood pressure, to say the least, and then maintains it for hours. This has been known to cause penis enlargement, in some cases extreme enlargement (megalophallus). This fits with your findings.

 

[remek]

Iguana: Amazing post! You've provided several new, unique concepts here.

I agree that enlarging the SM and enlarging the tunica might require different exercise strategies. As we know, the tunica is a tough tendon-like tissue. The CC/CS is, well, muscle. Stretching tendons and enlarging muscle probably needs two different approaches.

That said, I have a few questions:

1. Why is it that you believe jelqing/clamping/pumping works out the smooth muscle and not the tunica?
​

• Jelqing, in one form, is akin to a light stretch (that's why I think it provides length gains too)
• Doesn't clamping and pumping stretches the penis as well - only outward?

2. Similarly, why doesn't stretching/hanging workout the SM? Doesn't stretching put stress loads on the vascular cavities as well?
3. Why can't you focus on doing both at the same time? (i.e. stretching and jelqing, hanging and clamping, etc)

​

This isn't to say I don't agree with your theory. I think you have some very interesting thoughts going on. At the very least, you've provided an attempt to tie everything together. At the very best, you might have just found out a completely new way to PE, and - most importantly - gain

Your post reminds me a lot of the way Big Girtha use to train. He didn't really split things up, but he focused heavily on both hanging and clamping. Or, according to your theory, he focused on enlarging both the SM and the tunica - which is no doubt needed for big gains.

If I recall correctly, Big Girtha would use cable clamps on and off for 40 minutes to an hour, and then he would hang or 20 or so minutes. He did this for several sets, as he worked from home. It worked for him, as he fulfilled his the prophecy of his name by gaining over 2 inches in girth and 1.5 inches in length.

 

[Iguana]

Iguana: Amazing post! You've provided several new, unique concepts here.
Thanks remek! I hope some of these can be tested and verified. I think we have enough PE related experiences to start intelligently putting some of the pieces together.

I agree that enlarging the SM and enlarging the tunica might require different exercise strategies. As we know, the tunica is a tough tendon-like tissue. The CC/CS is, well, muscle. Stretching tendons and enlarging muscle probably needs two different approaches.





That said, I have a few questions:

1. Why is it that you believe jelqing/clamping/pumping works out the smooth muscle and not the tunica?​

Sorry, I may have not been very clear on this. I think any stress force will get a growth response with both tissue types. I was just emphasizing that certain exercises seem to be more effective at targeting the differing tissue.​

Jelqing, in one form, is akin to a light stretch (that's why I think it provides length gains too)​

I agree totally. Light being the key word here. If you think about it. During jelqing, the hand really never firmly grips the tunica but slides repeatedly over it in a tugging motion. I think as the tunica tissue toughens this becomes less and less effective.

• Doesn't clamping and pumping stretches the penis as well - only outward?

Yes, I agree, they most certainly do stretch the penis. I just think it lessens the effectiveness for length. With manual stretching the force is concentrated on one axis. With pumping and clamping the force is distributed outwardly also. Which is fine if you are looking for girth gains.
​

2. Similarly, why doesn't stretching/hanging workout the SM? Doesn't stretching put stress loads on the vascular cavities as well?​

Absolutely! You may have missed it, but I stated: "It is well documented that several factors can elicit a growth response in smooth muscle cells, including, but not limited to, stretching..." One article has great support for this. Here is another case where concentrated force may be the key. With stretching (at least for me) the tunica (and sometimes the ligs) seem to absorb most of the stress, while with jelqing, pumping and clamping I seem to feel it more in the tissue.​

3. Why can't you focus on doing both at the same time? (i.e. stretching and jelqing, hanging and clamping, etc)​

I think as long as your FSL stays far enough ahead of your EL you should be able to work both effectively.​

This isn't to say I don't agree with your theory. I think you have some very interesting thoughts going on. At the very least, you've provided an attempt to tie everything together. At the very best, you might have just found out a completely new way to PE, and - most importantly - gain

Your post reminds me a lot of the way Big Girtha use to train. He didn't really split things up, but he focused heavily on both hanging and clamping. Or, according to your theory, he focused on enlarging both the SM and the tunica - which is no doubt needed for big gains.

If I recall correctly, Big Girtha would use cable clamps on and off for 40 minutes to an hour, and then he would hang or 20 or so minutes. He did this for several sets, as he worked from home. It worked for him, as he fulfilled his the prophecy of his name by gaining over 2 inches in girth and 1.5 inches in length.

You are right on! That seems to be an underlying factor in almost all big gainers (bib, girtha, aristocane, etc.) They push the limits after the newbie gains are gone. I think once you hit the plastic deformation stage you better be prepared to pull out the big guns. I think by this time the "less is more" approach goes out the window. Tissue at this point is VERY tough. It is used to you tugging and yanking on it. You need to push the envelope to make headway. I'm not advocating strapping an anvil to your penis but I think new approaches are absolutely necessary to get results, be it with time, weight, angle, heat, or whatever.

Speaking of, I think we still undervalue/under use the resource of heat. I was reading an scientific article on what makes meat tough and how scientist are trying to engineer leaner softer beef. It stated that heat was the most valuable tool for breaking down collagen into a soft pliable substance. Collagen becomes a soft gel at 140 degrees Fahrenheit. I wouldn't recommend applying that to your penis although. : )

I may be the eternal optimist but I can't help but feel PE is approaching a major breakthrough.

 

[quik4life]

I may be the eternal optimist but I can't help but feel PE is approaching a major breakthrough.

Dido!!!

This is one of the most interesting threads of I've ever read.

I'm going to have to re-read it a couple more times before I fully grasp it though. There is a lot of useful information - both for newbies and advanced PEers.

Good work guys....seriously.

 

[remek]

Iguana: For the record, I just want to let you know that I intuitiavely agree that jelqing/clamping/pumping probably works out the smooth muscle more than it does the tunica (and stretching/hanging works out the tunica more). I've actually believed this for some time, yet I don't have any substantial evidence for this. Just a theory. I was hoping you could provide something

So where do we go from here? Do you have a demo-routine in mind that we can put to the test? I know that we should always increase the intensity as time goes on (like you said, less is more goes out the window at some point), but if you had to take this information and set it into a routine, what would that be?

 

[Iguana]

Iguana: For the record, I just want to let you know that I intuitively agree that jelqing/clamping/pumping probably works out the smooth muscle more than it does the tunica (and stretching/hanging works out the tunica more). I've actually believed this for some time, yet I don't have any substantial evidence for this. Just a theory. I was hoping you could provide something

remek, keep in mind, this is somewhat based on speculation, but I think the evidence is supportive at the very least. I based my conclusions mostly on what I had read in a few smooth muscle related articles. This one in particular: Vascular Smooth Muscle Growth: Autocrine Growth Mechanisms -- Berk 81 (3): 999 -- Physiological Reviews

I copied a particularly interesting excerpt and highlighted the statements (in red) that are especially applicable to PE.

II. PHYSIOLOGICAL PROCESSES THAT REQUIRE VASCULAR SMOOTH MUSCLE CELL GROWTH



C. Remodeling
Vascular remodeling (Fig. <A href="http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999#F1">1) is a physiological response to alterations in flow, pressure, and atherosclerosis. Remodeling involves changes in VSMC growth and migration as well as alterations in vessel matrix (214). Remodeling may be classified as proposed by Mulvany based on the nature of changes in vessel diameter (inward or outward) and by changes in mass (increased = hypertrophic, decreased = atrophic, no change = eutrophic) (214). As an example "eutrophic outward" remodeling would be an increase in lumen diameter without change in amount or characteristics of the vessel such as may occur with increased flow and atherosclerosis. In contrast, "hypertrophic inward" remodeling would be defined as a decrease in lumen diameter with increased wall thickness such as may occur with increased pressure. It has been best studied in resistance vessels during hypertension. During chronic hypertension, there is an increase in vessel wall thickness hypothesized to normalize wall stress. Physical forces (wall stress and cell stretch), autocrine growth mechanisms, and paracrine growth mechanisms (EC actions on VSMC) stimulated by the hypertensive environment appear causative.


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Fig. 1. Vascular remodeling.

In response to changes in blood flow, remodeling appears to be fundamentally dependent on the presence of an intact endothelium as shown by Langille and co-workers (173, 174) and by Kohler et al. (155). Because flow-induced remodeling would be expected teleologically to be mediated by changes in vessel tone and hence diameter, candidate mediators are vasoactive molecules. Among these, nitric oxide [produced by endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS)] appears to play a predominant role. Recent studies show that ~70% of flow-dependent outward remodeling is due to EC nitric oxide production as determined by inhibiting production of nitric oxide with eNOS inhibitors (317). During inward remodeling in response to decreased flow, there is a coordination of increased VSMC apoptosis and decreased VSMC proliferation to effect the decrease in vessel wall mass that occurs (47). An important role for monocytes has been elucidated in remodeling, especially in response to ischemia such as occurs after occlusion of a supply artery (277). In response to increases in flow, EC express monocyte chemotactic peptide-1 (MCP-1) and monocyte adhesion molecules such as intracellular adhesion molecule-1 (ICAM-1). The monocytes are recruited to the vessel and infiltrate and digest the media. The EC are activated by monocytes and express basic FGF (bFGF), PDGF-BB, and TGF-

. These growth factors then lead to VSMC growth and vessel enlargement. In response to increased pressure, remodeling appears to be due to activation of autocrine mechanisms that stimulate VSMC growth and changes in vessel wall matrix (123, 213, 215). As discussed in greater detail in section [SIZE=-1]IV[/SIZE], many VSMC growth factors have been implicated in the growth and remodeling of hypertensive vessels including PDGF (227, 274), TGF-

, insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and the IGF-I binding proteins (7), and hepatocyte growth factor (221). Paracrine mechanisms that are important in hypertension include increased production of ET-1 and angiotensin II by the endothelium.

Notice how increased pressure and flow stimulates an increase in mass and vessel diameter. Isn't this exactly what we are doing with jelqing, clamping and pumping, altering the blood flow and pressure?
Notice how shear stress (stress parallel to the vessel) can increase vessel diameter.

So where do we go from here? Do you have a demo-routine in mind that we can put to the test? I know that we should always increase the intensity as time goes on (like you said, less is more goes out the window at some point), but if you had to take this information and set it into a routine, what would that be?

Boy, that's the million dollar question. This is going to require a lot of thought. I was hoping we could put our heads together here and formulate some type of test routine. We need to assume this will be geared for those who are out of newbie gains. There would possibly be two routine types. One for those needing smooth muscle mass and one for those needing to focus on tunica elongation (based on BPEL to BPFSL ratio.) Or, maybe a routine that focuses a few weeks on one then switches to the other. Maybe, two weeks stretch based and then two weeks jelq, clamp, pump?

Any thoughts?

 

[remek]

Great finds, Iguana! The scientific journals you referenced go along with what I've been assuming all along (yet had no scientific backing for) - the smooth muscle grows with increased pressure. This also explains why veins get bigger due to PE, and why it might be a healthy sign that the SM is growing.

These growth factors then lead to VSMC growth and vessel enlargement. In response to increased pressure, remodeling appears to be due to activation of autocrine mechanisms that stimulate VSMC growth and changes in vessel wall matrix

This also builds a little evidence for something I've believed in for a long time - to keep the gains coming, you have to increase the intensity as time goes on (albeit healthfully).

There would possibly be two routine types. One for those needing smooth muscle mass and one for those needing to focus on tunica elongation (based on BPEL to BPFSL ratio.) Or, maybe a routine that focuses a few weeks on one then switches to the other. Maybe, two weeks stretch based and then two weeks jelq, clamp, pump?

You know what would really help is if we could build a list of signs to help people know when they need to focus on one or the other. If the theory is sound, then this would be a completely new way to PE - and it would almost be akin to the importance of following the PIs.

Didn't you mention earlier that you think an increased BPFSL means the tunica is stretched and thus it would be a good time to focus on the SM?

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state. In this case, what would be the best to focus on?

Or what about the firmness of the penis? Have you ever noticed that sometimes the penis feels very strong and firm - almost like when a bike tire is pushed to it's complete maximum? It's almost as if the SM is trying to buldge out of the tunica. It doesn't always happen - or at least for me - rather every once in a while. Perhaps it's a sign?

These are just some ideas. I could be going out a limb here, but feel free to scrutinize

 

[Iguana]

Great finds, Iguana! The scientific journals you referenced go along with what I've been assuming all along (yet had no scientific backing for) - the smooth muscle grows with increased pressure. This also explains why veins get bigger due to PE, and why it might be a healthy sign that the SM is growing.

Exactly! Wow! I had never thought about the increased veinage! That's another early sign newbies report.

This also builds a little evidence for something I've believed in for a long time - to keep the gains coming, you have to increase the intensity as time goes on (albeit healthfully).

Another excellent point! I had never thought of this either. I think most guys pretty much keep the same intensity level when jelqing for their entire PE career. They usually just up the reps. Everyone knows to up the intensity when hanging, pumping and stretching. Why hasn't anyone suggested up the jelq levels. Or, maybe that have and I missed it. I know it's definitely not mainstream thinking.

You know what would really help is if we could build a list of signs to help people know when they need to focus on one or the other. If the theory is sound, then this would be a completely new way to PE - and it would almost be akin to the importance of following the PIs.

Good idea. Might be useful to take a look at the PI list for some clues to what might be going on?

Didn't you mention earlier that you think an increased BPFSL means the tunica is stretched and thus it would be a good time to focus on the SM?

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state. In this case, what would be the best to focus on?

Or what about the firmness of the penis? Have you ever noticed that sometimes the penis feels very strong and firm - almost like when a bike tire is pushed to it's complete maximum? It's almost as if the SM is trying to buldge out of the tunica. It doesn't always happen - or at least for me - rather every once in a while. Perhaps it's a sign?

YES!!! Think about it! If the tunica is tight and constricted the internal pressure will be great, resulting in a very hard erection. If the tunica is stretched out over what it is normally accustomed to and the SM is not expanding enough to take up the excess space, a softer less rigid erection would be the result. The bicycle tire illustration was perfect.

I was thinking, we start newbies out with "The Newbie Routine". Which is jelqing and stretching. It seems most newbies are jelq happy and don't stretch as much as they should. Also, notice that usually the very first change they report is an EQ improvement - filling in the SM gap?

This could explain why some guys complain of their EQ suffering at times. Maybe they are focusing too much on stretching and not on SM targeting exercises? It would be interesting to see if guys with a higher BPFSL to BPEL ratio have softer erections. Logically, you would think so. We have always attributed this to over training. Maybe it is? - over training the tunica.

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state. In this case, what would be the best to focus on?

I think we push the tunica to stretch further but until we start breaking the elastic bands, it snaps right back. If the tunica elastic is exhausted and you have reached your plastic deformation stage. By this time, your flaccid hang should be pretty massive (at least in relation to what it was.) Am I way off on this one?

As far as what to focus on at this stage? I think we would have to examine our TIs (tissue indicators?, sorry! for lack of a better term.) What is our BPFSL to BPEL ratio? How is our EQ? If you are having rock hard erections at this point, I would say hit the tunica. This SHOULD mean your BPFSL to BPEL ratio is low. If your EQ is poor I would focus on SM to see if I could improve EQ and fill the BPFSL to BPEL gap.

These are just some ideas. I could be going out a limb here, but feel free to scrutinize

remek, not a limb at all! Great ideas and insight!!! We should start a list of indicators and see how what we know fits. What about a poll on how BPFSL/BPEL affects EQ? Just a side note, right before I started my decon break. My BPFSL was way up. Almost 3/4" over my BPEL. AND, my EQ was starting to be really poor!

Maybe were on to something?

 

[remek]

Maybe were on to something?

Iguana: I really think so. What do we have now, 4 or 5 "possible" signs?

Anyone else have some ideas? It would be great to get a survey going with some questions testing for this.

 

[Iguana]

Editors note: This post is a brief summary of what we have come up with so far. It is a collection of posts by remek and Iguana taken from posts both previous to this one and after it.

Tissue Growth Indicators (TGIs)
Tissue Growth Indicators refer to certain observable conditions that might lend clues to what is happening in the penis pertaining to growth or the lack of growth. These points are just some ideas, and in the future it may be found that certain TGIs don't belong in a certain category (similarly some TGIs may be found in the future).

The core of this theory is that PE is about enlarging two key tissue types

Anatomy

There are two main central components involved in enlargement:

1. The Corpus Cavernosa/Corpus Spongiosum - erectile sinusoids - composed of about 50% smooth muscle and 50% collagen.
2. The tunica albuginea – a dense outer lining surrounding the erectile chambers - composed of elastin and collagen.


From through research of this topic, we have found that these tissues do not enlarge from the same mechanisms. Conventional Natural PE seems to purport a "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to penile exercises. Meaning, there is little advocation for targeting or isolating the differing tissue types to elicit growth from each respective tissue. Given the differing composition (tough collagen vs smooth muscle) and structure of the two focal tissues involved in PE, we are advocating a more diametric approach.

We believe that the evidence supports differing growth mechanisms therefore requiring differing stress/stimulus approaches.

Enlarging the Erectile Chambers:The evidence here points to tissue regeneration: (Growth comes from added smooth muscle tissue and cell regeneration)

It is well documented that several factors can elicit a growth response in smooth muscle cells, including, but not limited to, stretching, injury and increased blood pressure. The following are excellent articles which support this.
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/262/5/R895
http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=10666084
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999

C. Remodeling
Vascular remodeling is a physiological response to alterations in flow, pressure, and atherosclerosis. Remodeling involves changes in VSMC growth and migration as well as alterations in vessel matrix (214). Remodeling may be classified as proposed by Mulvany based on the nature of changes in vessel diameter (inward or outward) and by changes in mass (increased = hypertrophic, decreased = atrophic, no change = eutrophic) (214). As an example "eutrophic outward" remodeling would be an increase in lumen diameter without change in amount or characteristics of the vessel such as may occur with increased flow and atherosclerosis. In contrast, "hypertrophic inward" remodeling would be defined as a decrease in lumen diameter with increased wall thickness such as may occur with increased pressure. It has been best studied in resistance vessels during hypertension. During chronic hypertension, there is an increase in vessel wall thickness hypothesized to normalize wall stress. Physical forces (wall stress and cell stretch), autocrine growth mechanisms, and paracrine growth mechanisms (EC actions on VSMC) stimulated by the hypertensive environment appear causative.

Enlarging the Tunica Albuginea: The evidence here points to a restructuring of the tissue through healing processes.
It is possible some cell growth takes place but most evidence points more toward plastic deformation.

Collagen has viscous properties which allow a residual elongation after a load is applied then released. This phenomenon is known as plastic deformation. Furthermore, its elastic properties allow for recoverable deformation which is a return to its original length after stretch is applied then released. As mentioned above, elevated temperatures increase the extensibility of collagen. Therefore, when a load is applied to heated tissue then released, greater plastic deformation results (increased residual length) and thus permanent elongation of the connective tissue.9

Heat Application in Physiotherapy

Growth process stages:

A. Catalyst (Injury, Exercise, Force, etc.)
B. Inflammation, Repair, Healing,
C. Healing, Rest, Deconditioning

Call it IPR or whatever you want but this seems to be the body's natural healing cycle regardless of the tissue type involved.

Summary: According to this theory, if your tunica is not actively being stretched properly, but you are continuing to build smooth muscle, your erections will get rock hard. The added smooth muscle tissue, tightly constricted by tunica, increases the penile density and rigidity. Now, if we refocus our attention on the tunica and stretch it out, length gains occur. But, because the smooth muscle is no longer tightly constricted it flows easily into the new tunica space giving us new length. But at the same time, because it is no longer tightly condensed, we loose EQ. The erection, although longer, is now softer and much less firm. The goal now would be to refocus on SM to regain the original density and thereby cement the added length. I think if we continue to stay focused on the tunica we may gain a little more length but here is where some guys think they need a break due to poor EQ. They assume the poor EQ means they're over-training, they start decon and loose some length due to atrophy, both SM & tunica. I think if we are giving equal attention and getting results from both tissue types we avoid this situation. But, after we exhaust newbie gains, this seems very difficult to do.

Note- any number of various other factors could also cause the above observations. If this theory is correct multiple indicators should be present in either instance.

Signs SM tissue is limiting gains.

- Weak or soft Erections
The theory: According to some studies, the lower the percentage of SM in the penis, the softer the erections.

"In recent electron microscopic studies, it could be shown that, in the case of many patients, a degeneration of the cavernous smooth muscles is present as cause of the erectile dysfunction (11-13)." Therapy apparatus for the functional electromyostimulation of smooth muscle cells - US Patent 6128536

"It has been shown that decreased smooth muscle content is associated with an impaired erection." Sexology 2005

In theory, if everything else is working properly, then the percentage of the SM in the penis could be low compared to the other tissues (e.g. the tunica). That said, this sign is the hardest to interpret, as several things can affect erection strength, including overtraining, stress, an unhealthy lifestyle, and much much more.

- BPFSL is .25" or greater than BPEL
The theory: When the BPFSL is greater than the BPEL, it essentially means that the length of the penis can extend further than an erection is allowing it to. The cause of an erection is the smooth muscle, so it is probably the limiting factor here. Also, the tunica is no doubt the part of the penis that determines how far the penis can be stretched. So, with this in mind, the tunica is stretched further than an erection, so it can't be the limiting factor to BPEL gains (and the SM probably is).


- Loss of gains when combined with weaker erections, especially loss of girth.
The theory: Let's go through the motions here. If the erection is hard, then that means their is enough smooth muscle (volume wise) and it is relaxed enough to press against the tunica. This, in turn, will essentially create a suction so blood can't leave the penis.

If the erection is weak, a few things could be happening . . . but it most often means the smooth muscle is either not relaxed enough to press against the tunica (which might be caused by the smooth muscle being fatigued, constriction of the blood vessels, stress, etc) or there not being enough smooth muscle volumetrically to press against the tunica. The later is where this theory comes into play. If there is not enough smooth muscle to press against the tunica, then essentially there is a "gap," and blood can't be held in the penis efficiently. So if everything else is right - i.e. the smooth muscle isn't overtrained, the blood flow is optimal, testosterone level is good, and you're living a healthy lifestyle (physically and emotionally) - then it would suggest that you might not have enough smooth muscle to press against the tunica, creating a gap and causing the weaker erections. (The Penis as a Vascular Organ).

According to this new theory, when gains are made, two things can happen:

1. Both the tunica and the smooth muscle have to be pushed to a new limit
2. Either the tunica or the smooth muscle was already pushed to a new limit, and the other one "catches up" causing the gain

Similarly, when gains are lost, either both fall from their previous limit or just one does (either the tunica or the smooth muscle). If a loss of gains occurs in conjunction with weaker erections, then hypothetically the smooth muscle volume has decreased while the tunica has stayed the same - and thus the smooth muscle volume isn't enough to effectively expand the tunica. A loss of gains can occur in either short-term or long-term.

1. A short term loss of gains is a negative PI. It's caused by overtraining. We can assume that similar to skeletal muscle, when the smooth muscle is overtrained, it experiences fatigue and can't be pushed to the fullest - and thus can't sustain maximum erections.
2. Long term lost of gains due to taking a break or not cementing gains. If erections are weak, then presumably more tunica gains were cemented than smooth muscle gains (thus causing a gap and weaker erections).

Note: According to this theory, weak erections can get tricky real quick. If the tunica enlarges and the smooth muscle doesn't, this creates a "gap" that needs to be filled. This is where the theory gets tricky - are you experiencing weak erection because of muscle fatigue or because you need to catch your smooth muscle limit up to your tunica limit?

Further note: Perhaps a way to test this would be that if your penis is the same size when it's at its peak, then your smooth muscle didn't decrease (or become fatigued) and thus the tunica just enlarged. This might be hard to test, as if the smooth muscle can't relax enough to cut off blood from leaving the penis, then there is no way to reach the "peak."

Maybes
- Poor Veinage
The theory: The reasoning here is 2-fold.

1. Within the veins and arteries, there are also smooth muscles cells (these are slightly different than the smooth muscle cells found in the corpus chambers within the penis). If the smooth muscle is poor in the veins and arteries, then the smooth muscle in the penis is most likely poor as well.
2. Blood flows into the penis through the arteries. The arteries take the blood into spongy-like spaces called "sinusoidal spaces" which lead to an erection. Inside the spongy spaces is where the corporal smooth muscle is (the stuff were presumably trying to make bigger). When there is more blood flowing to the penis, there is more blood flowing to the smooth muscle. If not enough blood is flowing to the corporal smooth muscle, then it is most likely not being pushed to its limit. Moreover, by actually focusing on exercising the smooth muscle within the penis, you're presumably exercising the smooth muscle in the arteries, which will increase blood flow.

- Good flaccid hang - but erections are weak or soft

- Good expansion when clamping or pumping (beyond typical erect size)



-Signs Tunica is limiting gains-

- BPFSL is .25" or less than that of BPEL
The theory: As mentioned, the tunica is most likely the part of the penis that determines how far the penis can be stretched. When the BPFSL is equal to or shorter than the BPEL, then the tunica is being stretched to its limit when erect. Thus, the tunica is limiting the gains.

- Rock hard, firm erections
The theory: When the penis feels very strong and firm it's as if the smooth muscle is trying to buldge out of the tunica - almost like when a bike tire is pushed to it's complete maximum. In this case, the tunica is the bicycle tire and the air inside is the smooth muscle. Just like a bigger tire can take more air, a bigger tunica (once enlarged) can take more smooth muscle.

- Loss of gains when combined with harder erections
The theory: Again, if the erection is hard, then that means the smooth muscle is relaxed enough to press against the tunica (and essentially create a suction so blood can't leave the penis). If a loss of gains occurs, and firm erections are taking place, then the tunica fell from its previous limit.


Maybes:
- Good Veinage
The Theory: If good veinage occurs, presumably erections are hard and the smooth muscle is being pushed to its limit. . . Thus making the major limit the tunica.

- Poor expansion when clamping or pumping

Targeting the Tunica or the Smooth Muscle

Targeting the tunica: When we are stretching/hanging/or using an ADS, we are stretching both the SM and the tunica. However, it would appear that the tunica is probably taking the blunt of the stress, as it is the tissues closest to the point of origin. In other words, the tunica is on the outer layers of the penis, the smooth muscle is on the inner layers, and hanging/stretching is generated closer towards the outer layers. Meaning, the hanger is on the outside of the penis, pulling the tunica. (Physics) For girth, it's possible you can focus on the tunica with certain exercises like the O-bend/flaccid bend.

Targeting the smooth muscle: Conversely, when we are clamping/pumping/or squeezing presure from the inside, we are also providing pressure on both the SM and the tunica. However, the smooth muscle is probably taking the blunt of the stress as it is the tissue closest to the point of origin. In this case, the pressure is coming from the inside (from a rapid influx of blood flow), and directly causing smooth muscle to expand, which indirectly causes the tunica to expand.

 

[Benta]

And for practicality, correct me if I have misunderstood, but if the SM is the limiting factor then you want to do more SM exercises, which we are unsure about- but the general consensus seems to be that this would be mostly jelqs, and if the tunica is the limiting factor then you would want to do more stretches. This seems very logical.

Now, one thing I am still finding very mysterious is the idea of break gains and deconditioning. Based on general muscle training principles it seems like if decon breaks were taken they should be much shorter than training periods, and should only last maybe 1-2 weeks? I think in the case of overtraining decon breaks are extremely important for recovery, but in general training I'm not sure how they play in. Anyways, sorry to get off track from what is already here.

Seems to me what you have come up with is a more accurate and precise method of interpreting PIs to fine tune your training methods. When combined with Pis to measure overtraining vs undertraining, and overall health, this is good stuff man. Very well done

 

[remek]

Benta: There has been several discussions on the length of decon breaks. When you hit a plateau, two months in the normal suggested time (although this isn't necessarilly right).

About the limiting factor being the SM: It may or may not be. That's actually the point of the recent discussion in this thread . . . To decode a little bit of the mystery of what to "focus" on

 

[Benta]

I phrased my paragraph poorly, what I was trying to do was break it down a bit, to say that in the case that the SM was the limiting factor, IE the tunica was overdevelopped in proportion (indicators would be long flacid length, less veins in your erections, etc as listed) then once you saw those indicators you would focus on your SM.

Alternatively, if you saw the opposite indicators, like rock hard erections and an abundance of veins then you would focus on developing your tunica, through stretches etc.

I was just trying to sum up a bit of the brainstorming for reading ease

 

[remek]

Benta: Sorry about that. I thought you were asking a question. Now, I can see that you were summing it up. Thank You

Iguana: That is a very impressive list. I full heartedly agree with every one except this one:

Possible
- Girth is greater when flaccid than when erect

Wouldn't this mean the tunica is the limiting factor as well, as it stays the same size when soft and erect? Maybe it's a combination of both.

 

[Iguana]

Wouldn't this mean the tunica is the limiting factor as well, as it stays the same size when soft and erect? Maybe it's a combination of both.

remek, you could very well right on this. I struggled with this one and probably wasn't very clear on explaining exactly what I meant. It should read "- Girth is greater when semi-erect than when erect."

I have read many many posts from guys who (including myself) sometimes notice greater girth, at a 80% or 90% erection than when fully erect. I usually measure at least 1/8" thicker when about 90%. I always chalked it up to the tunica getting slimmer when longer effect (there is a name for this phenomenon, but it escapes me) and that could very well be the reason. There seems to be other plausible explanations. It could also be because tunica is less flexible when 100% erect. But, then, why doesn't it expand more lenght wise? One thing it does tell us that the tunica has the potential for greater lateral expansion at less than 100%.

I guess my reasoning is that if a guy has 5.5" girth when fully erect and 5.75" girth when 90% he has the potential for another 1/4" EG girth in his tunica. Then logically if the tunica can stretch another 1/4" why doesn't it when 100%? Does it loose diameter when longer? Maybe. Balloons do. But, what puzzles me is not everyone experiences this. So if this were the explanation you would think that the effect would apply to everyone? And maybe it does? Maybe not everyone observes or reports it? I guess I just reason that if the tunica has that extra potential, than maybe it's not the limiter here? Thoughts? Comments?

 

[remek]

Iguana: I like the logic in the explanation above. I've never experienced this phenonemon, or read much about it. When your girth is greater in the semi-erect state, is your length smaller, larger, or the same than it is when you're in erect state?

If the length is smaller, I would presume that the tunica is the same size in both states . . . meaning the tunica may still be the limiting factor.

On the other hand, if the length is the same size, then the smooth muscle is probably the limiting factor.

 

[remek]

Also, I had a long drive over the Thanksgiving Holiday- during which I contemplated the ideas being thrown around in this thread.

I've come to the belief that every reaction the penis gives off (or every phsyilogical response) can be interpeted in one way or another as a sign of what to focus on. I'm just not sure how. The points you and I laid out here are a good start, but I want to know more.

I'm going to look for my smooth muscle notes later this week (100 + pages). I remember thinking about this sometime last year, but I ended up getting side tracked. I'll need to refresh my memory.

In the meantime, one question that bothers me is on the topic of length and girth:

• What's the role of smooth muscle growth in relation to length growth? How about girth growth?
• What's the role of tunica growth in relation to length growth? How about girth growth?

So far, we've kind of assumed that SM growth equals girth growth, and tunica growth equals length growth. The way I see it, there's no reason to believe this assumption, and in fact SM growth has to play some type of role in length growth, and vice versa.