i just wanted to know would you apply the LOT theory when you are wearing an extender? my LOT is 6.00
LOT theory & xtender
- Thread starter hirstwood
- Start date
Answer To Your Question...
Yes, since your LOT is 6, wearing your extender straight up would most likely produce the best lig deformation...
More on LOT Theory....
Sorry to split hairs, but I think there's some misconceptions going on about what LOT theory is.
LOT theory attempts to predict suspensory ligament deformation gains from hanging based on how high your penis exits your torso. Bib came up with the theory to try & predict hard gainers. However, guys with very low LOT have had excellent gains (perhaps from good tunica deformation? I don't know if anyone can say).
I quoted Bib's theory here at PEgym & gave some commentary:
https://www.pegym.com/forums/pe-theory-science-forum/16112-lot-loss-tugback-theory.html
See-Saw Effect
If I understand you correctly, your dick naturally points straight down. You could still try to extend straight down & see if you have any lig gaining potential (in case you're not truly 6:00). Or, you could also try & use the extender at a higher angle & try & use the "see-saw effect".
With hanging, Bib kept swapping between high & low angles (months at a high angle, then months at a low angle). He later realized in hind-sight he was getting bigger each time. He thought changing the angle was helping to maximize deformation in his suspensory ligaments. I believe this is what he means when he refers to the "See-Saw Effect".
I have been curious about extenders & whether they can produce much in terms of ligament deformation. So far, I don't have a straight answer on this.
LOT Theory & Low LOT
If you really want to truly maximize ligament deformation, hanging is the way. Your LOT is already 6:00 though--according to that theory you have limited lig gains (theoretically your 'easy' gains are limited). In other words, LOT theory attempts to predict lig gains, that's about it. (It doesn't attempt to predict Tunica gains; just lig gains).
In other words, LOT theory predicts lig gains; it doesn't suggest angles.
BUT, based on your LOT, we can try to guess which angle will work best for you...
Suggesting angles is just common sense... & not part of LOT theory (to see what I mean, read up on lot theory via my link above). If your lot is low you may benefit from a high angle & if your lot is high, you may benefit more from a lower angle.
On the other hand, since your dick naturally points straight down, you could use this angle to maximize tunica gains (since theoretically, you might not be able to deform your ligs this direction).
Hopefully this helps, instead of confusing things more....
Yes, since your LOT is 6, wearing your extender straight up would most likely produce the best lig deformation...
More on LOT Theory....
Sorry to split hairs, but I think there's some misconceptions going on about what LOT theory is.
LOT theory attempts to predict suspensory ligament deformation gains from hanging based on how high your penis exits your torso. Bib came up with the theory to try & predict hard gainers. However, guys with very low LOT have had excellent gains (perhaps from good tunica deformation? I don't know if anyone can say).
I quoted Bib's theory here at PEgym & gave some commentary:
https://www.pegym.com/forums/pe-theory-science-forum/16112-lot-loss-tugback-theory.html
See-Saw Effect
If I understand you correctly, your dick naturally points straight down. You could still try to extend straight down & see if you have any lig gaining potential (in case you're not truly 6:00). Or, you could also try & use the extender at a higher angle & try & use the "see-saw effect".
With hanging, Bib kept swapping between high & low angles (months at a high angle, then months at a low angle). He later realized in hind-sight he was getting bigger each time. He thought changing the angle was helping to maximize deformation in his suspensory ligaments. I believe this is what he means when he refers to the "See-Saw Effect".
I have been curious about extenders & whether they can produce much in terms of ligament deformation. So far, I don't have a straight answer on this.
LOT Theory & Low LOT
If you really want to truly maximize ligament deformation, hanging is the way. Your LOT is already 6:00 though--according to that theory you have limited lig gains (theoretically your 'easy' gains are limited). In other words, LOT theory attempts to predict lig gains, that's about it. (It doesn't attempt to predict Tunica gains; just lig gains).
In other words, LOT theory predicts lig gains; it doesn't suggest angles.
BUT, based on your LOT, we can try to guess which angle will work best for you...
Suggesting angles is just common sense... & not part of LOT theory (to see what I mean, read up on lot theory via my link above). If your lot is low you may benefit from a high angle & if your lot is high, you may benefit more from a lower angle.
On the other hand, since your dick naturally points straight down, you could use this angle to maximize tunica gains (since theoretically, you might not be able to deform your ligs this direction).
Hopefully this helps, instead of confusing things more....
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blink...you have made so much sense, i get it now LOT determines lig gains...i have been using the see-saw effect, then again i've only been hanging and extending for a couple of weeks so still to see some gains but thank you sooo much bro you have put it into perspective for me, i'll keep at it and try different angles as well as the 'see-saw'
See-Saw Effect
See-Saw Effect
Right now I am trying to shift my package from LOT 9 to LOT 6... I want my penis to point straight down. I figure this will take some time, maybe years...
One thing more... to really make the see-saw effect work, it would take months at a time at the same angle... and you would literally shift your package (lets say from LOT 6 to LOT 6.5 or LOT 7). Once you literally shifted your package one way (by a few degrees), you could try & then make it go back the other way--
Here's some more on the See-Saw Effect:
gmarceau: "Bib, a few years ago, this was a theory that I had heard about, where the LOT can increase over time if the ligs are left alone to concentrate on tunica work. Is this generally what was being talked about? Why is this, because I cannot remember?
I only bring it up because my own pe has led to a gradually decreasing LOT- I'm close to 7 now. I don't know where I began at, but I've gained 1.5 inches from lig work. I believe you said LOT is the point where tugback lessens, not where it stops.
It's strange, because I will stop doing pe, when lig fatique becomes nonexistent, but then, a few months later, when I feel like beginning to give pe a go again, I'm able to get some great fatique in my ligs. This leads to small gains, as the majority happened in the beginning when I would pull BTC and reverse kegel. I can still feel the ligs taking some stress when I do a V-stretch tunica exercise."
>Bib, a few years ago, this was a theory that I had heard about, where the LOT can increase over time if the ligs are left alone to concentrate on tunica work. Is this generally what was being talked about? Why is this, because I cannot remember?<
This theory was put out by Hobby, and I believe it is true. Many have reported evidence of it's validity.
As a guy does tunica work, hanging at the upper angles, or with a fulcrum, the entire tunica is stretched, inner and outer. As the inner tunica is stretched, the relationship with the ligs changes. The ligs do not become shorter or tighter, but the shaft-lig attachment point, in relationship to the pubic bone, is further out. So when a guy returns to lig work, hanging at the lower angles, there is more "slack" in the inner tunica, and the ligs take the stress of the hang before the inner tunica.
This new relationship, with a longer inner penis, is reflected in a higher LOT also. The ligs stop the effect of the kegal upon the stretch at a higher angle.
>I only bring it up because my own pe has led to a gradually decreasing LOT- I'm close to 7 now. I don't know where I began at, but I've gained 1.5 inches from lig work. I believe you said LOT is the point where tugback lessens, not where it stops.<
Yes. The most relevance is where the ligs begin to take the stress of the stretch from the inner penis.
>It's strange, because I will stop doing pe, when lig fatique becomes nonexistent, but then, a few months later, when I feel like beginning to give pe a go again, I'm able to get some great fatique in my ligs. This leads to small gains, as the majority happened in the beginning when I would pull BTC and reverse kegel. I can still feel the ligs taking some stress when I do a V-stretch tunica exercise.<
That is probably because of the ligs healing back slightly in the retracted state. But if you make slight gains from it, great.
Bigger"
source: Bib's Hangers - Seesaw effect
See-Saw Effect
Right now I am trying to shift my package from LOT 9 to LOT 6... I want my penis to point straight down. I figure this will take some time, maybe years...
One thing more... to really make the see-saw effect work, it would take months at a time at the same angle... and you would literally shift your package (lets say from LOT 6 to LOT 6.5 or LOT 7). Once you literally shifted your package one way (by a few degrees), you could try & then make it go back the other way--
Here's some more on the See-Saw Effect:
See-Saw Effect
(Suspensory Ligament Deformation Theory)
(Suspensory Ligament Deformation Theory)
gmarceau: "Bib, a few years ago, this was a theory that I had heard about, where the LOT can increase over time if the ligs are left alone to concentrate on tunica work. Is this generally what was being talked about? Why is this, because I cannot remember?
I only bring it up because my own pe has led to a gradually decreasing LOT- I'm close to 7 now. I don't know where I began at, but I've gained 1.5 inches from lig work. I believe you said LOT is the point where tugback lessens, not where it stops.
It's strange, because I will stop doing pe, when lig fatique becomes nonexistent, but then, a few months later, when I feel like beginning to give pe a go again, I'm able to get some great fatique in my ligs. This leads to small gains, as the majority happened in the beginning when I would pull BTC and reverse kegel. I can still feel the ligs taking some stress when I do a V-stretch tunica exercise."
Bib's Commentary on See-Saw Effect
Bib: "Gmarc,>Bib, a few years ago, this was a theory that I had heard about, where the LOT can increase over time if the ligs are left alone to concentrate on tunica work. Is this generally what was being talked about? Why is this, because I cannot remember?<
This theory was put out by Hobby, and I believe it is true. Many have reported evidence of it's validity.
As a guy does tunica work, hanging at the upper angles, or with a fulcrum, the entire tunica is stretched, inner and outer. As the inner tunica is stretched, the relationship with the ligs changes. The ligs do not become shorter or tighter, but the shaft-lig attachment point, in relationship to the pubic bone, is further out. So when a guy returns to lig work, hanging at the lower angles, there is more "slack" in the inner tunica, and the ligs take the stress of the hang before the inner tunica.
This new relationship, with a longer inner penis, is reflected in a higher LOT also. The ligs stop the effect of the kegal upon the stretch at a higher angle.
>I only bring it up because my own pe has led to a gradually decreasing LOT- I'm close to 7 now. I don't know where I began at, but I've gained 1.5 inches from lig work. I believe you said LOT is the point where tugback lessens, not where it stops.<
Yes. The most relevance is where the ligs begin to take the stress of the stretch from the inner penis.
>It's strange, because I will stop doing pe, when lig fatique becomes nonexistent, but then, a few months later, when I feel like beginning to give pe a go again, I'm able to get some great fatique in my ligs. This leads to small gains, as the majority happened in the beginning when I would pull BTC and reverse kegel. I can still feel the ligs taking some stress when I do a V-stretch tunica exercise.<
That is probably because of the ligs healing back slightly in the retracted state. But if you make slight gains from it, great.
Bigger"
source: Bib's Hangers - Seesaw effect
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sorry i don't know how to quote..
"As a guy does tunica work, hanging at the upper angles, or with a fulcrum, the entire tunica is stretched, inner and outer. As the inner tunica is stretched, the relationship with the ligs changes. The ligs do not become shorter or tighter, but the shaft-lig attachment point, in relationship to the pubic bone, is further out. So when a guy returns to lig work, hanging at the lower angles, there is more "slack" in the inner tunica, and the ligs take the stress of the hang before the inner tunica."
"This new relationship, with a longer inner penis, is reflected in a higher LOT also. The ligs stop the effect of the kegal upon the stretch at a higher angle"
such educating information, so with consistent work of the tunica LOT will change to high? so when i reach this point i could start doing low angle exercises again?
"As a guy does tunica work, hanging at the upper angles, or with a fulcrum, the entire tunica is stretched, inner and outer. As the inner tunica is stretched, the relationship with the ligs changes. The ligs do not become shorter or tighter, but the shaft-lig attachment point, in relationship to the pubic bone, is further out. So when a guy returns to lig work, hanging at the lower angles, there is more "slack" in the inner tunica, and the ligs take the stress of the hang before the inner tunica."
"This new relationship, with a longer inner penis, is reflected in a higher LOT also. The ligs stop the effect of the kegal upon the stretch at a higher angle"
such educating information, so with consistent work of the tunica LOT will change to high? so when i reach this point i could start doing low angle exercises again?
Ok, your LOT angle is just the way your penis exits your body--6,7,8,9 usually most guys are in that range. 6 is straight down, 9 is straight out. Most guys are somewhere in the middle.
How the See-Saw Effect Can Work For You
And yes, once your ligs are used to the tension in one direction & perhaps getting too strong (and you've stretched & deformed them successfully at least some small amount), you can switch directions--that's the see-saw effect. As we know it takes at least 6 weeks for our penis to decondition during a "Decon Break". However, your ligs are getting stressed full time with something like hanging. I have never heard how long you should stay at one angle, but I would say at least 2-3 months at one angle is probably a good idea (maybe more, I don't know).
Theoretically, your ligs will slightly decondition at your old angle of attack, so that in a few months when you come back to it, you will be able to deform the ligs at the new angle. That's the see saw effect, once your ligs adapt at one angle, you later switch back to the opposite angle, then once you adapt to that angle, you switch back again... rinse repeat... (i.e. every few months you switch angles).
When do you switch angles? I would venture to say, when your gains are stalling or slowing down too much, then you switch. If you're gaining fast, I think it's a mistake to try & change things... (if it's not broken, don't fix it!)
Our Goal is Low LOT... Right?
Theoretically though, I think we all want to end up with a very low LOT... 7 or lower if possible. It's my understand at least that this will not only make my flaccid hang better, but it will help me make some erect gains too. Once you bottom out on your lig gains at a low angle (7,6, whatever), thats when something like this see-saw effect would be useful.
Now, in the case of hirstwood, his LOT is 6. His penis already points straight down, so he can try a downward angle once he feels his gains are slowing too much at an upward angle--assuming he's going for ligament deformation & trying to implement this see-saw effect.However, a downward angle might not help him unless he actually shifts his LOT to at least 6.5 or 7 (since you can't really go past 6, at that point, you're not deforming your ligs, its just a tunica pull).
In the meantime you will get some tunica deformation...
RSDT = Superior For Tunica Work (Doesn't Target Ligs)
Bib has said in hindsight though, he might have just moved to the RSDT once he was done with his ligament stretching & changing his LOT angle to a 6 (he literally shifted his whole package downward & he believes he gained 2"+ just from ligament stretching). The RSDT fulcrum exclusively targets tunica deformation--it will do pretty much nothing to your ligs. Once you maximize lig gains, most likely the RSDT fulcrum should be your next step.
Why Most Should Target the Ligs First
Why Maximize Lig Gains?
Physiologically, there are reasons to first maximize your lig gains--I don't understand the anatomy behind it, but it seems Bib & Westla agree that you must maximize lig deformation before you can truly maximize your tunica gains (see the link above). Otherwise, the ligs will take some of the stress and potentially become a limiting factor (much the way skin is your first limiting factor--it must be stretched. Your ligaments are the next big limiting factor to some extent... ). Yes, there's veins, nerves, & many other things in your penis, but from what I understand, your tunica & ligs stretch much slower than these other structures.... & also, veins/ nerves etc are easy to change over time/ it does not take much force to change them (i.e. they are not limiting factors).
Why I Brought Up the See-Saw Effect / Theory
Ok, back to the main topic: supposedly if your LOT is 6, you wont be able to create ligament deformation at low angles, you'll just be working on your Tunica. IF you want to stretch your ligs, I think you will have to go for a higher angle (this is common sense right.. if your penis points straight down & you want to stretch your ligaments, perhaps a high angle is the only way to effectively do this).
This is really what brought on the whole conversation about the see-saw effect. Most guys should be targeting lower angles to stretch ligs. However, a guy with a LOT of 6 can't do that; he will just be getting Tunica deformation if he hangs BTC, SD or another low angle. In that case he could first try to stretch his ligs upward, and then pull them back down...
Anecdotal Evidence Says This Works
Anecdotal evidence (just various reports of positive feedback from different guys) suggests this method does work. My starting LOT is 9. If I ever get my LOT to 6, I'll try this to. Then I'll be able to give feedback.
I need to do a higher angle at some point anyway--this will give me a chance to wrap my balls & correct the almost inevitable turkey-neck good gains will create. Right now I'm doing BTC, a ball wrap is impossible since my shaft is splitting my balls. An OTS, SU, or another high angle though will be ideal for the ball wrap. I hear the wrap doesn't require too much time; when Bib mentions this it was almost an afterthought (it seems it was not much of a problem, at least for him). That makes sense; skin is relatively easy to change (compared to ligs & tunica).
I would say, IF your LOT is low, and you work at high angles, yes, you can stretch those ligaments upwards, creating some deformation.
How the See-Saw Effect Can Work For You
And yes, once your ligs are used to the tension in one direction & perhaps getting too strong (and you've stretched & deformed them successfully at least some small amount), you can switch directions--that's the see-saw effect. As we know it takes at least 6 weeks for our penis to decondition during a "Decon Break". However, your ligs are getting stressed full time with something like hanging. I have never heard how long you should stay at one angle, but I would say at least 2-3 months at one angle is probably a good idea (maybe more, I don't know).
Theoretically, your ligs will slightly decondition at your old angle of attack, so that in a few months when you come back to it, you will be able to deform the ligs at the new angle. That's the see saw effect, once your ligs adapt at one angle, you later switch back to the opposite angle, then once you adapt to that angle, you switch back again... rinse repeat... (i.e. every few months you switch angles).
When do you switch angles? I would venture to say, when your gains are stalling or slowing down too much, then you switch. If you're gaining fast, I think it's a mistake to try & change things... (if it's not broken, don't fix it!)
Our Goal is Low LOT... Right?
Theoretically though, I think we all want to end up with a very low LOT... 7 or lower if possible. It's my understand at least that this will not only make my flaccid hang better, but it will help me make some erect gains too. Once you bottom out on your lig gains at a low angle (7,6, whatever), thats when something like this see-saw effect would be useful.
Now, in the case of hirstwood, his LOT is 6. His penis already points straight down, so he can try a downward angle once he feels his gains are slowing too much at an upward angle--assuming he's going for ligament deformation & trying to implement this see-saw effect.However, a downward angle might not help him unless he actually shifts his LOT to at least 6.5 or 7 (since you can't really go past 6, at that point, you're not deforming your ligs, its just a tunica pull).
In the meantime you will get some tunica deformation...
RSDT = Superior For Tunica Work (Doesn't Target Ligs)
Bib has said in hindsight though, he might have just moved to the RSDT once he was done with his ligament stretching & changing his LOT angle to a 6 (he literally shifted his whole package downward & he believes he gained 2"+ just from ligament stretching). The RSDT fulcrum exclusively targets tunica deformation--it will do pretty much nothing to your ligs. Once you maximize lig gains, most likely the RSDT fulcrum should be your next step.
Why Most Should Target the Ligs First
Why Maximize Lig Gains?
Physiologically, there are reasons to first maximize your lig gains--I don't understand the anatomy behind it, but it seems Bib & Westla agree that you must maximize lig deformation before you can truly maximize your tunica gains (see the link above). Otherwise, the ligs will take some of the stress and potentially become a limiting factor (much the way skin is your first limiting factor--it must be stretched. Your ligaments are the next big limiting factor to some extent... ). Yes, there's veins, nerves, & many other things in your penis, but from what I understand, your tunica & ligs stretch much slower than these other structures.... & also, veins/ nerves etc are easy to change over time/ it does not take much force to change them (i.e. they are not limiting factors).
Why I Brought Up the See-Saw Effect / Theory
Ok, back to the main topic: supposedly if your LOT is 6, you wont be able to create ligament deformation at low angles, you'll just be working on your Tunica. IF you want to stretch your ligs, I think you will have to go for a higher angle (this is common sense right.. if your penis points straight down & you want to stretch your ligaments, perhaps a high angle is the only way to effectively do this).
This is really what brought on the whole conversation about the see-saw effect. Most guys should be targeting lower angles to stretch ligs. However, a guy with a LOT of 6 can't do that; he will just be getting Tunica deformation if he hangs BTC, SD or another low angle. In that case he could first try to stretch his ligs upward, and then pull them back down...
Anecdotal Evidence Says This Works
Anecdotal evidence (just various reports of positive feedback from different guys) suggests this method does work. My starting LOT is 9. If I ever get my LOT to 6, I'll try this to. Then I'll be able to give feedback.
I need to do a higher angle at some point anyway--this will give me a chance to wrap my balls & correct the almost inevitable turkey-neck good gains will create. Right now I'm doing BTC, a ball wrap is impossible since my shaft is splitting my balls. An OTS, SU, or another high angle though will be ideal for the ball wrap. I hear the wrap doesn't require too much time; when Bib mentions this it was almost an afterthought (it seems it was not much of a problem, at least for him). That makes sense; skin is relatively easy to change (compared to ligs & tunica).
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Keep in mind--these theories were created in reference to hanging. You can try & apply it to extenders, but I am not sure how well it will work in that context, mostly because I don't know how well you can deform ligs with an extender.
So basically if you have a 6 o'clock LOT, then stretching down should theoretically produce the best tunica gains?
Fulcrums are the best for tunica gains.
At least with hanging, the best tunica gains are actually from a fulcrum, like the RSDT, or something round with a 2.5" diameter (and soft padding around it). That creates excellent fatigue & deformation.
If you're not going to use a fulcrum, then sure, that could be helpful. However, as I mentioned before, I don't know if any of this applies to extenders (sorry). I'm trying to learn more about extenders (I have been for a few months now).
After reading this thread yesterday, today I decided I would try to wear my extender at 12 o clock (I have a 6 oclock LOT). Typically I just wear my extender down at 6 due to comfort and the ease to hide it (since i typically wear it out in public). But right now all my roommates are at school so I decided to try wearing my extender upwards.
So I strapped in about 30 minutes ago, the same way I normally do. As I pulled from the 9 to 12 oclock position, my penis began to slip, clearly it is not use to being pulled in this direction. And just 5 minutes ago I was checking my glans and tension and all that, noticed my glans were going numb so I had to take it off.
Is something like this expected? Is it likely that I will have to start off at a much lower tension (1" or so less than what I do when at 6 o clock) due to the fact that my penis is not use to being pulled upwards. I find this very interesting, and see that it would take months and months for my 12 oclock position to catch up to the 6 o clock.
I have noticed something like this since the beginning of use. Whenever I wanted to check what bpxl I was at, I would pull my extender up to the 9 oclock from the 6, and slippage would occur.
Blink, you seem very knowledgeable in this subject, what do you believe is going on here?
So I strapped in about 30 minutes ago, the same way I normally do. As I pulled from the 9 to 12 oclock position, my penis began to slip, clearly it is not use to being pulled in this direction. And just 5 minutes ago I was checking my glans and tension and all that, noticed my glans were going numb so I had to take it off.
Is something like this expected? Is it likely that I will have to start off at a much lower tension (1" or so less than what I do when at 6 o clock) due to the fact that my penis is not use to being pulled upwards. I find this very interesting, and see that it would take months and months for my 12 oclock position to catch up to the 6 o clock.
I have noticed something like this since the beginning of use. Whenever I wanted to check what bpxl I was at, I would pull my extender up to the 9 oclock from the 6, and slippage would occur.
Blink, you seem very knowledgeable in this subject, what do you believe is going on here?
hey fisch i wear it at 12 o clock, i started off at a lower tension for two weeks because of the slippage and uncomfortable feeling then slowly began to crank it up and now im up to erect level and after a few weeks i hope to crank it up more, i gained great flaccid length and i love wearing it after hanging because it keeps it elongated
Try to get a head swell before strapping in. There's an article here on that which i read somewhere. It tends to help with slippage. Also slippage could occur if you're stretching or pulling out too much.
