So global warming is climate change?

[akaTrex]

As with the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event, in my mind the jury is still out.

 

[Pirate]

The climate is changing.
It always has.
That is why ice ages happen and why they end.

 

[namsokiek]

I think methane from cow manure causes global warming:horse:
We do not have a cow avatar,but the horse is dropping a
few!

It is definitely a contributor. Did you know there are things call Anaerobic Bio-digesters? If you place biological matter, in this case cow manure, into a sealed (anaerobic) container, it produces methane gas without the odor. With a little work, this methane gas can be refined and burned to operate a steam-powered turbine. Anything biological can be added to the slurry (as long as you can maintain the right consistency) and it will contribute to methane production. The byproduct of the digester is perfect fertilizer, electricity, and hot water.

Some big dairy farms have invested in this technology, they sell the fertilizer to the home gardener at a premium, use the hot water to heat the milking barns during the winter, use the electricity to power their farm, and sell electricity back to the grid at the market rate.

 

[namsokiek]

My question to those of you who disagree is this: what about the concept of finding a cheaper, cleaner and renewable source of energy to prevent the slow destruction of the planet makes you so bothered?

This is the key. There is one cheaper and cleaner source of energy, but it is not renewable.

Nuclear power can be cheaper and cleaner, but political reasoning limits the ability to be so. The power plant stuff is short lived and creates a problem with storing the "spent rods" because they are still extremely radio active. The problem is that we use this isotope and do not use the weapons isotope.

There is a difference between the plutonium used for power plants and the stuff used for weapons. They are close isotopes and that is why most countries are having kittens each time Iran talks about their plutonium refinement for power plants. However, if we are allowed to use the weapons grade plutonium as the fission material for a power plant, this extends the usable life of the rods by decades.

We have enough "spent rods" that can be modified and power the US for several centuries.

However, the proliferation of weapons grade plutonium in power plants across the globe is something most casual observers will consider too risky.

Without this, there is no other cheap, source of energy that can compete with fossil fuels.

 

[burtybasset]

Nuclear fission I believe creates the nasty waste by-products that nobody knows what to do about, nuclear fusion (naturally occurring in our sun) is a more energetic reaction with no nasty waste by-products or at less dangerous ones. But there is always the danger of something going wrong, as it has in the past with Chernobyl and Fukushima, maybe if they built reactors under large bodies of water it would be possible to limit this danger.

The US is not the only country doing anything about climate change/global warming, here in the UK we will be fined by EU if we don't meet certain emissions levels by 2020 I believe, that's if we are still a part of it then.

Also energy efficient lighting is being pushed - they have stopped making incandescent lamps (the original vacuum filament Edison screw bulbs), I believe they have stopped making high pressure sodium and metal halide (HID) lamps for street lighting and are being replaced with LED and compact fluorescent lighting.

Renewable energies for homes and businesses are on the increase since the government started offering feed in tariffs (FIT), which basically means for every Kilowatt of energy you generate and feed into the grid they will pay you for, but more than this they pay you for it even if you use this power yourself.

They call these alternative energies, but they are really primary energy sources, they haven't yet reached their full potential. Coming from someone who had solar thermal panels on his roof I can assure you that during the spring, summer and autumn months I saved money on my gas bill, in winter I still saved but my hot water wasn't boiling hot like it was in summer it was just warm.

I think we should all do our bit, but I don't particularly like jumping through hoops to get these technologies in place and working for the consumer, probably the most consistent and reliable source would be water turbine. But over here you have to apply to a few different governing bodies to get permission, to make sure you don't harm fish or affect the flow of the water further downstream and what not. Just too much politics to get anything done!

 

[BigRooster]

I think methane from cow manure causes global warming:horse:
We do not have a cow avatar,but the horse is dropping a
few!

So what do we do? In the words of comedian Ron White. I'm eating the cows.

 

[burtybasset]

I think we are immune to global warming over here in the UK (and Ireland) anyway, since rain is the natural cleanser of environmental CO2, we get plenty of that! So if you are worried about it come over here, you will be perfectly safe

 

[kickinthemebs]

You will have to endure the constant rain though :becky:

I think we are immune to global warming over here in the UK (and Ireland) anyway, since rain is the natural cleanser of environmental CO2, we get plenty of that! So if you are worried about it come over here, you will be perfectly safe

 

[burtybasset]

No, science is not run by political parties.

Ermm? Dunno about that, I'm pretty sure most research centres are government funded, how else would they have he funds to conduct their research? Depending on which political party holds the reign of government at the time, they may influence scientific research or at least the findings we are told about.

I remember a few years ago that cannabis was in the news, for years it had no scientific research done because it was illegal, but then they did some research and it turned out it came from the devils garden, it caused cancers at a greater rate than tobacco and all kinds of crap you don't want.

But now a further few years down the line, they are making all kinds of medications with it, research is being done into it's neuro-protective properties and anti-cancer properties how can this be when yesterday it was so evil?

P.S. Check your states laws before rolling a fat one! :heh:

 

[CUSP82]

CO2 emissions?Did someone mention that one? Why are we mad at CO2? Oh because we're humans and we like O2. Plants on the other hand like CO2. There are some smart people , some call them scientists, then believe a rise in CO2 would be beneficial for the planet. There research shows that a rise it CO2 would increase plant life and therefore give us a greater ability to feed people. Sure it has to be within reason and maybe we're still finding out what 'within reason" means.


Do we actually know for certain if the increase in CO2 levels is not cyclical with this planet? Well we couldn't measure stuff like that in the past so how do we know that it's not something natural to the planet? One major way is looking at trapped air in polar ice. They take ice samples with trapped air, at ground level, at analyze it and then extrapolate their findings to tell us what went on in the upper atmosphere at that time. It's one of the best methods we have but how accurate is it? The extrapolation part always seems to bother me. When medicine only had xrays and you came in with a head injury well an xray could tell you if your skull was fractured and that's about it. So your brain was bleeding who cares ; the only tool they had said your head wasn't broken so your fine. Maybe studies in polar ice are like xrays?

When they analyze that air in the ice are they really sure that no microorganism was trapped in there, you know one of those things that eat CO2 and spit out O2? Things like that live everywhere so are we sure the sample hasn't been contaminated? Some smart people suggest that is a possibility but since it's one of the best tools we have ( because we don't know any better) we'll go with it. Maybe we need to learn more before we mess up what we're already messin with?

 

[Dangler]

What happened to global cooling ? Or did it used to be global warming ?

When the 'musical chairs' terminology was identified, the new term became 'Global Climate change'.
Whack-a-mole.

 

[burtybasset]

CO2 emissions?Did someone mention that one? Why are we mad at CO2? Oh because we're humans and we like O2. Plants on the other hand like CO2. There are some smart people , some call them scientists, then believe a rise in CO2 would be beneficial for the planet. There research shows that a rise it CO2 would increase plant life and therefore give us a greater ability to feed people. Sure it has to be within reason and maybe we're still finding out what 'within reason" means.


Do we actually know for certain if the increase in CO2 levels is not cyclical with this planet? Well we couldn't measure stuff like that in the past so how do we know that it's not something natural to the planet? One major way is looking at trapped air in polar ice. They take ice samples with trapped air, at ground level, at analyze it and then extrapolate their findings to tell us what went on in the upper atmosphere at that time. It's one of the best methods we have but how accurate is it? The extrapolation part always seems to bother me. When medicine only had xrays and you came in with a head injury well an xray could tell you if your skull was fractured and that's about it. So your brain was bleeding who cares ; the only tool they had said your head wasn't broken so your fine. Maybe studies in polar ice are like xrays?

When they analyze that air in the ice are they really sure that no microorganism was trapped in there, you know one of those things that eat CO2 and spit out O2? Things like that live everywhere so are we sure the sample hasn't been contaminated? Some smart people suggest that is a possibility but since it's one of the best tools we have ( because we don't know any better) we'll go with it. Maybe we need to learn more before we mess up what we're already messin with?

I'm with you on the cyclic thing, but the planet was a giant snowball at one point in Earth's history so they say, the natural way this melted supposedly was volcanic eruptions spewing out massive amounts of CO2 raising the temperature of the planet, so I'm pretty certain CO2 does account for at least some climate change.

The only problem is man is cutting the hell out of the forest and trees, concreting everything in his path, I believe we are creating an imbalance that nature may rectify by removing it's causes - us!

Over here the government in their wisdom have decided to start building on greenbelt to accommodate immigrants, nothing against either of these but we don't even do this for our own citizens.

It may well be the case that what we are experiencing is part of a natural cycle or we may be adding to the already natural process, but we can either attempt to clean up after ourselves or just ignore our mess and hope for the best.

I'm also with you on not wanting to be the only one pulling their weight in trying to deal with these things, I also run a small business and have stupid amounts of paperwork to fill out (it really cheeses me off!), many times to answer the same questions over and over again, jumping through hoops.

Why do we need to do this, especially now living in the digital age! Everything should be saved somewhere in cyberspace and filled out online. I have to wonder how many CO2 loving plants and trees lost their lives so we could fill out some bloody paperwork

Awesome thread Cusp you got a debate going on

 

[AlpineNewt]

I think methane from cow manure causes global warming:horse:
We do not have a cow avatar,but the horse is dropping a
few!

Don't blame the cows, it's those darn termites I tells ya!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...f-methane-stella-wiseman-reports-1394135.html

 

[CUSP82]

Hey don't get me wrong, but you can if you want to, man does have an affect on this planet. I just know if we're actually smart enough to know exactly how much of an affect we have and what's the correct way to fix it. I also don't know what affect it would have on Mother Earth if we just suddenly stopped releasing what we're releasing into the environment. The earth is an adaptable thing and maybe we just may screw it up further without the knowledge we currently lack.

Remember when we were messing up the ozone layer? What happened with that? Well some smart guy figured out a cheap affordable solution to what was messing with the ozone and gee we don't talk about that anymore do we.

 

[CUSP82]

Okay so I'll continue my rant.

Someone said use clean energy. Wow what a great idea. Windmills seem clean don't they? Not very cost efficient but clean. They made some out west and guess what? Some stupid birds flew into them, got killed, and a few of the companies faced lawsuits over birds that were too stupid to fly around that big whirly thing. Now with the cost of litigation as it is int his country why on earth would you would you want to start a windmill farm and set yourself up to legal bills if a bird commits suicide? Not me! Oh let's put them offshore. I guess we don't mind killing a few seagulls. Oh wait we can't because someone with a nice house on the coast doesn't want their view of the ocean ruined. Well there goes that idea.

Nuclear power? Used a lot in Europe, most of our Navy ships, and we have quite a few operating safely in the country for decades. Why not do that? Well it seems no one really wants them anywhere near where they are. Oh they will complain about a carbon footprint but no nukes for them.

What if you wanted to build one anyway? A buddy of mine is a retired nuclear engineer. He told me with the regulations put out by the government, regulations that the existing nuke plants do not have to conform to because they were already built but are operating safely, that it would be impossible to build one. First it would be cost prohibitive due to the cost of the new safer regulations but at the same time it would take at least 20 years to build with all the inspections, changes, new regulations coming out while it's being built, and so on.

Okay so what do we use now?

 

[Pirate]

It is definitely a contributor. Did you know there are things call Anaerobic Bio-digesters? If you place biological matter, in this case cow manure, into a sealed (anaerobic) container, it produces methane gas without the odor. With a little work, this methane gas can be refined and burned to operate a steam-powered turbine. Anything biological can be added to the slurry (as long as you can maintain the right consistency) and it will contribute to methane production. The byproduct of the digester is perfect fertilizer, electricity, and hot water.

Some big dairy farms have invested in this technology, they sell the fertilizer to the home gardener at a premium, use the hot water to heat the milking barns during the winter, use the electricity to power their farm, and sell electricity back to the grid at the market rate.

Several AD (Anaerobic digesters) projects are being built in the SF Bay area and not just for manure anymore. These facilities take food and landscaping waste and use it to produce heat, electricity, fertilizer, and CNG. They are very cool. Personally, I believe that we are in a serious situation but not one worthy of the panic that many in the environmental community are advocating nor the crippling economic regulatory policies that many on the political left support. The big question is whether we can decouple the science from the politics long enough to get a supportable, reasonably objective, assessment of the situation and the timeline facing us. Then we can adapt and work towards a technical solution.
Also personally, I rather like the idea of a warmer, wetter, world. (Most of my favorite places are both warm and wet.)
Yarrr!

 

[watersnake]

Your gona see a rise in piracy as there will be more water to float around in. I believe you will also see fish adapt and evolve, and change migratory patterns.

 

[Toadstool]

Your gona see a rise in piracy as there will be more water to float around in. I believe you will also see fish adapt and evolve, and change migratory patterns.

I don't know about that. How long has it been since the Chernobyl disaster? And STILL no superheroes. Not even so much as a giant lizard. Nothing. Like hell fish are going to adapt and walk out of the ocean.

 

[kickinthemebs]

You obviously didn't just come out from the new Godzilla movie....

I don't know about that. How long has it been since the Chernobyl disaster? And STILL no superheroes. Not even so much as a giant lizard. Nothing. Like hell fish are going to adapt and walk out of the ocean.

 

[Toadstool]

Well, here's my 2 cents.

I graduated from college with the intention of going to university for environmental sciences.
The people teaching classes on ecology, ethology, environmental climate and all that spoke about climate change as a fact. They never questioned it.
They said, "we're releasing ample supplies of green house gasses. CO2 is just one of them. Water vapour is actually the most abundant, although the least powerful. There are others, such as NOX. All of these gasses have varying degrees of strength for the greenhouse effect, but they ARE there. CO2 is just most looked at because the causes of their emissions are directly in our face: cars in traffic, big factory stack chimneys. etc." You can also count on there being heavy metal-based gasses, those gasses found in fridges and hairspray cans, dioxins and a load of other stuff that that we've pumped into the air. Oh, and remember all of the nuclear radiation on top of all of that. You know, from atmosphere bomb tests, underground bomb tests, nuclear plant meltdowns.

Then, they'd go on to talk about how there is a lot of documentation about how frogs are being severely affected by these changes. Some species of frog have gone extinct. Everything Nam said is true and stuff they teach here at my canadian college and university.



You know, a problem is that there is SO MUCH going on in the world. Climate change is one of the major things. Yes, there have been ice ages and yes we are due for one...
The thing about ice ages is that they don't happen in a flash freeze; they take hundreds or thousands of years to happen. When they happen, a good 90% of everything in the world is frozen and dies.
So my thinking is, if these climate change warning are saying that we're affecting the world to such a degree that we can expect something catastrophic in 1-2 hundred years, whether or not it's a natural occurrence is irrelevant: We're speeding things along.


One reason that I dropped out of university was because I started to feel like Nam. I mean, hey - other people got us into this mess and now there's this huge fight about if the mess even exists. Then some people start "believing" or "not believing" in climate change, as though that changes something.
A good question is what to do about it? I mean, what CAN we do?

Here in canada, there is this thing where they audit garbage. They fine you if you don't separate your plastic from your paper or if they find quantities of produce that should have been tossed in the compost.
MEANWHILE, a good 80% of what we recycle is tossed in a landfill anyway. Why? Well, they can't recycle most of the stuff they're given.
Take a water bottle for instance. The body of the water bottle will be made with a certain type of plastic, while the head of the bottle will be made of a different plastic. The cap will be one kind of plastic, and the ring that holds the cap will be yet another. Then you have the paper, the glue, and the ink on the label. What does this spell out when you multiply that by a billion?
It spells out one hell of a tough time, nearly impossible, to separate the recyclables from that which can't be recycled.
What's more, is that people don't know what you can and cannot recycle make it difficult for you to properly recycle things, and messages are usually crossed or jumbled.

For example, some websites say that plastic bags can be recycled. Yet, when I put plastic bags in my blue bin, the recyle collector refuses to pick it up. Why? Well he says that those plastic bags can't be recycled. So he leaves the whole thing.
How about computer products and batteries? You have to lug that sh*t out of your way to a special store to deal with it. Yea, because that's reasonable with a fulltime job, a family, a persona life, etc etc.

And then, there's rubber and styrofoam. All things that can't be recycled or broken down, but are still in production. Yet, us - the general public - are told to "do things differently for the good of the planet." Hey I'm all for positive and constructive changes, but when my hard efforts are quite literally being thrown away as useless, what the hell's the point?
If climate change is such a serious problem, then why aren't the serious contributors being held accountable for their actions? Is it as simple as politics, money, and greed? Maybe.

Oh, and don't forget deforestation. Population increases. Factory farming is a real CO2 contributor. Industrialization of countries such as China and India (who have been looking at the US with envy for some time now). Did I miss anything?

Maybe what's left "to do" is to kiss the Earth as you knew it goodbye and say hello to Eaarth. It looks similar, but there's something very different about it. Maybe what we should do is start to embrace this new change and figure out how to work with it, because people are *not* going to change.


Anyone heard of earthships? Man takes garbage and uses it to build a fully self-sustainable, eco-friendly, severe-weather-resistant housing. Google it.