Body fat expectations /goals

Pegasus

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Body fat expectations. Hmm i thought we could discuss .
Throwing this out there as a starter.

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logo-mayoclinproc.gif

Mayo Clin Proc. 2011 Jun; 86(6): 584.
doi: 10.4065/mcp.2011.0097
PMCID: PMC3104919
PMID: 21628621More on Body Fat Cutoff Points

Lan T. Ho-Pham, MD
Pham Ngoc Thach University of Medicine
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
Lesley V. Campbell, MD and Tuan V. Nguyen, PhD
University of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
To the Editor: We read with interest the recent article by Oreopoulos et al[SUP]1[/SUP] that reported the association between body composition and chronic heart failure. In the article, the authors state that “…WHO [World Health Organization] has also proposed a definition of obesity as greater than 25% body fat in men and greater than 35% body fat in women,” with the 1995 WHO Technical Report[SUP]2[/SUP] serving as the reference for this statement. As a matter of fact, the mentioned WHO Technical Report makes no recommendation regarding the criteria of percentage of body fat (PBF) for the diagnosis of obesity.

However, the WHO Technical Report refers to a Swedish study in which the average PBF (by underwater weighing) was 25% in men and 30% in women aged 45 to 49 years:
Using underwater weighing of 200 healthy Swedish men and women aged 45-78 years, Bjontorp & Evans[SUP][3][/SUP] reported changes in the percentage of weight that is represented by body fat. At 45-49 years, men averaged 25% fat; this seemed to stabilize at 38% at age 60-65 years. Women had more body fat than men at 45-49 years (30%) and stabilized at an average of 43% at 55-59 years. Between 60 and 78, neither men nor women showed much change in percentage body fat.[SUP]2, p378[/SUP]​

Thus, the WHO report did not set any threshold of PBF for defining obesity.

Despite that fact, several authors have continued to misquote the PBF threshold. The misquotation appears to have begun in an article published in 1998,[SUP]4[/SUP] which stated that “Obesity is characterised by an increased amount of body fat, defined in young adults as body fat >25% in males and >35% in females, corresponding to a body mass index (BMI) of 30 kg/m[SUP]2[/SUP] in young Caucasians” and attributed these thresholds to the WHO Technical Report.[SUP]2[/SUP] Moreover, subsequent studies[SUP]5-10[/SUP] continued referring to that article[SUP]4[/SUP] and/or the 1995 WHO Report[SUP]2[/SUP] as the primary source for the PBF thresholds.

In 2004, a WHO Expert Committee stated without reference that “…overweight (≥25 kg/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) corresponded to 31-39% (mean 35%) body fat in females and 18-27% (mean 22%) body fat in males. If these criteria for the percentage body fat for overweight and obesity are applied to the Asian populations, the corresponding BMIs can be calculated with country-specific equations.”[SUP]11[/SUP]

These are quoted as “facts” without a sound scientific basis because no original scientific validation has been published.

In summary, an initial misrepresentation of a WHO Technical Report has led to a trail of subsequent misquotations. To date, there is no validated threshold of body fatness for defining obesity.
 

Johnny D

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Looking at WHO now, they say that obesity is defined as >30% without regard to gender. Whatever numbers are chosen seem arbitrary to me and I would think that the more meaningful measure would be based on some health risk threshold. Ruling out other factors, what is the PBF that correlates to a significant increase in risk of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, etc...? Why is someone at 29% overweight but someone at 31% is obese?
 

Pegasus

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The problem commes in of course that thin people can get stroke etc and at what point is risk "significantly increased ?
Or you could go the other way and say at what level is health maximumised .
 

Dreadsteed

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I don’t think there is any magic number that is going to show a sudden spike or drop in health risk. Higher PBF’s do seem to be exponentially worse for your health in many ways, but it is still probably a somewhat gradual curve overall. Having brackets is arbitrary and kind of meaningless on a gradual scale. Instead I think they should have body composition weighed against the prevalence of body-composition related deaths or medical incidents and have the output be about your risk at whatever given PBF you’re at on the spectrum. They said in the study they defined their averages for body composition based off of people they classified as “healthy” people, but what conditions or qualities were used to make that assumption?
 

akaTrex

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Looking at WHO now, they say that obesity is defined as >30% without regard to gender. Whatever numbers are chosen seem arbitrary to me and I would think that the more meaningful measure would be based on some health risk threshold. Ruling out other factors, what is the PBF that correlates to a significant increase in risk of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, etc...? Why is someone at 29% overweight but someone at 31% is obese?
In my 60's, 5'8" and I fluctuate from 195 - 197lbs.
I'm a Gym Rat, lifting 4 days a week and Cardio 5 x 30 min a week.
Recently had a Hydrostatic test performed and my BF % was 18.
I am having issues getting Life Insurance due to the Idiotic BMI system.
 

Marlon LGHanger

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Just saw an article yesterday on OUTKICK that cited a number of people who suggested that calling anyone obese was racist.
Just an observation, but it seems like people are getting fatter. I've never seen so many little kids who are overweight.
The BMI scale was significantly lower 40-50 years ago.
Dying from Covid has been linked to obesity. Not suggesting anyone needs to starve themselves or be single digit bodyfat, anyone who's honest with themselves knows if they're overweight.
 

Dreadsteed

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In my 60's, 5'8" and I fluctuate from 195 - 197lbs.
I'm a Gym Rat, lifting 4 days a week and Cardio 5 x 30 min a week.
Recently had a Hydrostatic test performed and my BF % was 18.
I am having issues getting Life Insurance due to the Idiotic BMI system.
I am a bodybuilder and in college I hit my lowest body fat cut of 6.6%, and at the time in one of my classes we were tasked with doing BMI analysis assessments. I am 5’7” and weighed 157.8lbs, which gave me a BMI of 24.7 - which is classified as healthy. But if I weighed just 2.2lbs more I would have been classified as overweight and at risk of heaps of cardiovascular problems. At just under 7% body fat… Instead I wrote my paper on how BMI is a flawed blanket system that doesn’t take into account factors like muscle mass vs. fat mass. The teacher agreed and gave me full credits. It is a bad system to use as a gatekeeper for certain privileges.
 

akaTrex

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Just saw an article yesterday on OUTKICK that cited a number of people who suggested that calling anyone obese was racist.
Just an observation, but it seems like people are getting fatter. I've never seen so many little kids who are overweight.
The BMI scale was significantly lower 40-50 years ago.
Dying from Covid has been linked to obesity. Not suggesting anyone needs to starve themselves or be single digit bodyfat, anyone who's honest with themselves knows if they're overweight.
I agree, who on the Forum remembers "PE" aka Physical Education at school?
No longer a required class at schools except maybe Private schools.

Years ago I attended a High School reunion and one of my old 4 x 400 track teammates
made the following observation. He stated that of ALL the ex HS Athletes at the reunion, with a few exceptions the ex Track Athletes, 40 years later looked healthy.

Food for thought? No Pun Intended.
 
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PhallicPhun

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I got into a rut for about 10 or 15 years and over that time put on 50 pounds over my ideal weight (about 195, 185 really lean). I’ve been trying to get back to that since about 2016 or so, and only really seriously for roughly a year, just before I started doing PE. All that to say being fat sucks. I’m down to 220 and I can definitely say I feel 100 times better just losing 20 pounds and getting regular exercise. Nothing is more inspiring than seeing someone overweight doing something about it. By the same token it’s disappointing seeing a whale on an electric cart buying a dozen donuts at the Walmart bakery. They’ll be dead by 50 or 60. Since getting serious, my blood pressure is back close to normal, I can see all 8 inches for the first time in a long while, and am starting to see a slight lessening of my fat pad. Your Johnson really does look bigger when that starts to disappear. Take it from the fat guy, getting and staying healthy improves everything. For me what is working is intermittent fasting building toward multiple day fasts once in a while. I used HCG but to be honest I think the only thing it helped with was appetite suppression. I didn’t lose any muscle mass but I didn’t follow the insane 500 calorie starvation diet either.
 

Dreadsteed

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I got into a rut for about 10 or 15 years and over that time put on 50 pounds over my ideal weight (about 195, 185 really lean). I’ve been trying to get back to that since about 2016 or so, and only really seriously for roughly a year, just before I started doing PE. All that to say being fat sucks. I’m down to 220 and I can definitely say I feel 100 times better just losing 20 pounds and getting regular exercise. Nothing is more inspiring than seeing someone overweight doing something about it. By the same token it’s disappointing seeing a whale on an electric cart buying a dozen donuts at the Walmart bakery. They’ll be dead by 50 or 60. Since getting serious, my blood pressure is back close to normal, I can see all 8 inches for the first time in a long while, and am starting to see a slight lessening of my fat pad. Your Johnson really does look bigger when that starts to disappear. Take it from the fat guy, getting and staying healthy improves everything. For me what is working is intermittent fasting building toward multiple day fasts once in a while. I used HCG but to be honest I think the only thing it helped with was appetite suppression. I didn’t lose any muscle mass but I didn’t follow the insane 500 calorie starvation diet either.
I do a pretty basic diet of exercise-factoring BMR -150 calories/day. Then do carb cycling through the week, when I need to break a plateau, to keep the weekly calorie intake the same while tricking the body into letting go of the fat. High cal’s sat/sun, moderate Monday, low Tuesday, moderate Wednesday, low Friday. Breaks through any plateaus I’ve had from 25% bf down to 6.6%. Simple and slow but it works.
 

MeiGuoRen

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My wife and I noticed during a trip to Europe some years ago that the Europeans tended to be a lot slimmer.
It was simply very noticeable particularly when we returned to the US and were walking in the airport and I noticed a lot more people like me.

We have been to Europe on two other occasions in 2019 and early 2022 and the initial observations remained the same despite these two additional trips being in completely different parts of Europe.

As a goal in preparation for that trip earlier this year I embarked on intermittent fasting and have lost a good 20 pounds since then which is just about 8 months.

Today for example I did a longer fast of 21 hours from 10PM last night to 7PM today.

Did not even notice how late it was and only popped a handful of mixed nuts after drinking a glass of cold water after coming in from yard work. I thought to myself, hell, I was not even hungry and wonder if so had pressed on a few more hours and went to bed, tomorrow morning around 6AM would have been 32 hours.

Will try that sometime in the near future.

I hear from various YouTube videos such as Dr. Berg that intermittent fasting boosts human growth hormone from 16 hours on into the fast.

Has anyone done a study on how increased spikes in human growth hormone facilitates of hinders Penis Extension which we are all here accomplishing?
 

Marlon LGHanger

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I am a bodybuilder and in college I hit my lowest body fat cut of 6.6%, and at the time in one of my classes we were tasked with doing BMI analysis assessments. I am 5’7” and weighed 157.8lbs, which gave me a BMI of 24.7 - which is classified as healthy. But if I weighed just 2.2lbs more I would have been classified as overweight and at risk of heaps of cardiovascular problems. At just under 7% body fat… Instead I wrote my paper on how BMI is a flawed blanket system that doesn’t take into account factors like muscle mass vs. fat mass. The teacher agreed and gave me full credits. It is a bad system to use as a gatekeeper for certain privileges.
Was BMI checked with skin calipers or a water tank? I believe skin calipers are very inaccurate.
 

Marlon LGHanger

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I agree, who on the Forum remembers "PE" aka Physical Education at school?
No longer a required class at schools except maybe Private schools.

Years ago I attended a High School reunion and one of my old 4 x 400 track teammates
made the following observation. He stated that of ALL the ex HS Athletes at the reunion, with a few exceptions the ex Track Athletes, 40 years later looked healthy.

Food for thought? No Pun Intended.
Graduated in 1976. PE was mandatory and we had Presidents Physical Fitness testing..... number of pushups & sit ups in 60 seconds, chin ups, staggered agility cones & mile run.
Kids today are extremely weak! My 15 year old step son can't do a single legit pushup or chin up.... but his thumbs are in tip top shape from playing video games!
 
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akaTrex

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Graduated in 75. I was forced to take Track by my Football coach.
Ended up liking Track more than Football. Physically and Mentally way more demanding than Football! I was the first Sprinter to anchor the 4 x 400-meter relay. Back then 800/Milers ran the 4 x 400. The US BMI is a total joke. Now in my 60's @ 5'8" 195 lbs my Hydrostatic measured BF is still in the teens. The high teens but still in the teens! Weightlifting and Inline Skating keeps the Bride happy with my Physique!
 

Dreadsteed

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Was BMI checked with skin calipers or a water tank? I believe skin calipers are very inaccurate.
That was a hydrostatic displacement test, so it would have been relatively accurate. I also think skin calipers can be a less accurate method for testing overall body fat %. Much more practical for assessing changes in a specific fat store over time with repeated measurements than for seeing overall body fat, as the body disproportionately stores it’s fat across the body for a lot of people.
 
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Pegasus

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That electric resistence thing they use in gyms now that is supposed to be 99% accurate to the dexa is I have found less accurate than skin calipers .
 
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Marlon LGHanger

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That was a hydrostatic displacement test, so it would have been relatively accurate. I also think skin calipers can be a less accurate method for testing overall body fat %. Much more practical for assessing changes in a specific fat store over time with repeated measurements than for seeing overall body fat, as the body disproportionately stores it’s fat across the body for a lot of people.
I'm not a bodybuilder, but had two friends who were, one was an IFBB pro (Phil Hernon), and another a top amateur who should have been a pro (Brad Hollibaugh). Both said the hydro tank was all they trusted other than the mirror. Both dead now at very early ages! I suspect too much toxic Anadrol during their careers.
 
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Pegasus

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Roids and bodybuilders sigh .
 

Pegasus

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Roids and bodybuilders sigh .
 

Dreadsteed

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That electric resistence thing they use in gyms now that is supposed to be 99% accurate to the dexa is I have found less accurate than skin calipers .
Being more hydrated than a previous test at the same body fat % will give a false reading of lower body fat % on an electrical impedance test as the water makes the body slightly more conductive. Same in the opposite direction with being more dehydrated. That’s why you’re supposed to do it right in the morning after using the bathroom and before drinking or eating anything. Any other point in your daily routine can give inconsistent readings.